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NSW supra club Member
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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys, i need a favour and thought id ask here.

I have a supra mkiv, gt4202 ( thats the 74mm garrett) with 1.05 a/r.
Supporting mods are big front mount, 4"dump, BC 264's, valve springs, haltech e11, 850cc, hks dli, dual walbro, water/meth kit.

Motor is untouched.
I am getting very low power output, my previous output was 406kw with still the old jdm cams ( wich was still low on numbers ) and now after installing 264 cams, its around 360kw, this is at 26-28psi with meth.
This is all on a dyno dynamics , wich reads lower then your dyno's.
Ive been to a few tuners and my power graph just looks like it peaks at the max power wich happends at 5500rpm and then the power curve just flattends all the way to redline.

I am having suspicion that it may be my ignition timing map, and was hoping someone with some decent power and similar turbo would be kind enough to send me theyre ignition timing mapping, so i can have a look through it and compare to mine, so i can eliminate the ignition side of things, as im running out of idea's.

If anyone would be kind enough to help out, please PM or you can send to [email protected]
I would appreciate it gladly, i understand that a lot of guys wont do this as they have had a lot of money put into it and dont want to share it perhaps, but if someone doesnt mind and would like to help out, please do.

Thanks.
If anyone has any opinions on what i should try next, id be happy to take the opinions and give it a try.
 

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Hi guys, i need a favour and thought id ask here.

I have a supra mkiv, gt4202 ( thats the 74mm garrett) with 1.05 a/r.
Supporting mods are big front mount, 4"dump, BC 264's, valve springs, haltech e11, 850cc, hks dli, dual walbro, water/meth kit.

Motor is untouched.
I am getting very low power output, my previous output was 406kw with still the old jdm cams ( wich was still low on numbers ) and now after installing 264 cams, its around 360kw, this is at 26-28psi with meth.
This is all on a dyno dynamics , wich reads lower then your dyno's.
Ive been to a few tuners and my power graph just looks like it peaks at the max power wich happends at 5500rpm and then the power curve just flattends all the way to redline.

I am having suspicion that it may be my ignition timing map, and was hoping someone with some decent power and similar turbo would be kind enough to send me theyre ignition timing mapping, so i can have a look through it and compare to mine, so i can eliminate the ignition side of things, as im running out of idea's.

If anyone would be kind enough to help out, please PM or you can send to [email protected]
I would appreciate it gladly, i understand that a lot of guys wont do this as they have had a lot of money put into it and dont want to share it perhaps, but if someone doesnt mind and would like to help out, please do.

Thanks.
If anyone has any opinions on what i should try next, id be happy to take the opinions and give it a try.

Let's see your present ignition map.
 

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NSW supra club Member
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475 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Ok, i'll try to explain a few things with some graphs and printouts, but before i do, here is the story.

I had a bone stock motor, JDM of course, so no cams, no headwork, untouched motor, only add ons, like gt42 and supporting mods etc...
Went on a dyno, and at ~26psi here is the result.:



And here is the ignition mapping for that dyno: ( please note: i have modified the screen so it shows the conversion from KPA to PSI, so you have an idea as im not sure if everyone is familiar with how haltech E11 works, and i havent bothered showing the negative part of the timing)



As you can see on the graph, the peak power is reached at 5500rpm and from there on it just flattens out and stays like that till redline, i was expecting it to climb a bit more then slowly start curving down, like i see on hundred of dyno numbers.

I was told that my JDM cams are a BIG restriction and that i possibly have valve float, so i bought a set of BC 264's and valve springs, thinking this will solve my problem.

Went back on a dyno ( different place ), the operator said that the timing map i have is set too high and that its not safe ( the one above i posted), and he adjusted it to his liking ( i did tell him that i run meth/water injection but he didnt seem to interested to know about that and i have a feeling he didnt trust it), so here are the results of that dyno:



And here is the ignition map:



See how again, as soon as i reach my peak boost @ 5500rpm, the dyno curve just flattens and the power stays the same through to redline, is this normal?
It is also running too lean and i have booked with him again this saturday to try and fix a bit of the issue if we can ( we had no time ).

As you can see, the power went down a fair bit!, it was low before, and now with upgraded parts even lower!!!
363kw = ~486hp then add around 15/20% for USA dyno's i think?
406kw = ~544hp then add 15/20%

Boost stays constant ( check first dyno graph).
I have 4" dump, mid and 3" the rest.
3" cooler pipes
4.5" FMIC
New oem coils and hks dli, bkr7e plugs gapped at 0.7mm
Cam gears set at 0deg.

So what do you guys think of the two ignition maps, wich one is better? is the first one really dangerous?
Have you guys seen the power graph like that one before?
I'll see what happens on the weekend when i get another go at it.

Thanks guys.
P.S.
Alpha, check your email, thanks.
 

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Without knowing all the particulars just by looking at the second timing map it is on the conservative side above 161kpa.
Couple of Haltech questions for you.
Which software/firmware version are you using?
What is the trigger angle and tooth offset?
If you send me the map there are some things on the ignition/trigger setup page that I can look at to see if it's correct.

Is this car auto or manual?
What gear was used on the dyno? Road speed seem low.
What type of tires were used on the dyno?
What fuel/octane is being used?

The second dyno appears to be very lean also.
 

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NSW supra club Member
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475 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Hi Crispeed,
I tried emailing you through this site but it wont let me, so can you please PM me your email addy and i'll send you the map i have.

The V1.67 is whats in the car atm, but i also have the v1.71 disc with me but not installed.
Here are some of the answered you were asking:

Multi tooth 24+1, full sync
trigger sensor type: reluctor mode
Home sensor type: reluctor mode
Trigger signal edge: falling
Home signal edge: falling

Trigger filter level: 2
Home filter level: 2
Trigger gain control: 0
Home gain control: 3

Car is 6speed manual, pirrelli p zero rosso tyres.
Pull was in 4th gear i believe ( the first dyno sheet says it ), but ive also tried another dyno in 5th gear ( 1:1 ratio ) and made no difference at all.
Octane here is unleaded 98 RON, but like said, i have meth/water kit ( derek) i can use.

Do you think the first timing map is a better representation of what usually people would use?
Yes, 2nd dyno is reading lean, i am going back this saturday to see if we can sort it out.
Let me know what else you need and ill send you though email, cheers and appreciate it greatly.

Danny
 

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Premium Member
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5,335 Posts
The second map looks alot like my ignition map but on straight pump gas. If you are running water/meth, I think you could use the first map and get quite big gains, but you would have to listen to knock to be sure.
 

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NSW supra club Member
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475 Posts
Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
That first map was used with that first dyno graph 406kw @26psi with meth/water, what im more worried about is the dyno graph issue!
I think the reason for the low output is that flat line at 5500rpm to redline, i am basically getting that power at a low 5500rpm.

to me, that power curve looks wrong.

Just an example:
The second power graph 363kw wich i got this past sunday, a mate has a supra with a 66mm turbo running 14psi pump fuel and a .6x rear a/r, got 350kw! im running 26+ psi with meth, and a 74mm turbo with 1.05 a/r and only got 13kw more then him, something is defenatly wrong.
 

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Carma Performance
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765 Posts
103KPA is not 14.9psi. It is atmospheric. With that being said you are only running 9.5* of timing at 14psi(200KPA). What map sensor are you running?

Erin
 

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Danny
If you're using 4th gear on a 6-speed how come the road speed is only showing 170-175km?
Unless something is not setup correctly with the dyno that may indicate wheel spin unless you're not using a 6-speed final drive.
 

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103KPA is not 14.9psi. It is atmospheric. With that being said you are only running 9.5* of timing at 14psi(200KPA). What map sensor are you running?

Erin
Erin

Haltech scales the map from -100 to 200kpa when using a 3-bar map sensor.
103kpa should be around 14.9psi.
 

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NSW supra club Member
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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Crispeed,
I am not sure why the lower road speed, but i think in 4th at around 7/7500rpm you wont get much more then 180kmh.
Here are a couple of charts i just found on google and linked, they are on australian supras and dyno's, running what im asuming in 4th gear as well.





As you can see, they are all around 180km/h road speed.

I do have a dyno chart of mine when they did a 5th gear run, and that was only 240km/h, wich is 1:1 gear ratio.
The first two dyno charts of mine i posted are also from different dyno's, and the 5th gear pull i havent posted yet is also another dyno again, so they cant all 3x be doing something wrong!
I will post this chart when photobucket is back online.
EDIT: ok here is my dyno chart in 5th gear, showing ~240kmh road speed. check the flat line curve tho!


Blacksupra,
Very much doubt clutch, i would know if that was the case.
I also had 2 different clutch setups during my problems.

The only thing left to do on mine is maybe the 3" cat back, blitz nur spec r? would that be too small?

Crispeed, im sending you email now.

cheers.
 

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So you're running a GT42 with 3inch exhaust?
 

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NSW supra club Member
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Discussion Starter #18
4" dump off turbo and 4" mid pipe.
3" is the cat back, blitz nur spec.
I may try disconnecting the cat back exhaust to see what happens, would 3" cat back really be that restrictive?
 

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Just to throw a spanner in the works, Danny runs almost the exact exhaust setup my car runs - and mine made 519rwkw on 25 psi on the same dyno as his 405 (first graph)
What does worry me a little is that you think your Blitz is only 3" - I'm sure that my Blitz Nur spec is 3.5 at least!

PS: that APC graph is my car on #1!!! How the worm has turned :D

edit: sorry to assume knowledge, but my setup is GT42R (I *think* it's the 74 mm version), pump 98, 3.0L, Autronic + CDI
 
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