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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Toyota made a lot of claims about the new Supra's engine, as they would in any PR piece, and so delving into how exactly this B58B3001 engine actually contributes to the rest of our MKV is essential. Its not the 2JZ successor we wished for but its all we have to work with for now. One well known source broke down the B58B3001 and i've included more on that below, he talks about (1) what each character of the engine code means (2) B58 vs N55 (predecesor) (3) the twin scroll turbo (4) vanos/valetronic and more. The information is quite extensive and might help or hinder your odds of buying an MKV.

A B58 vs 2JZ comparison might be worth including as well. Of course the B58 won't be as capable or strong as the 2JZ with strictly bolt ons but something reasonable can be made of it. Up to 700hp is what i'm reading.

 

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No one cares about a breakdown of the BMW engine. No one cares how it stacks up to the 2JZGTE. No one cares about the price. No one cares about it's performance. The MKV is a BMW 4 with an automatic transmission. There's nothing to discuss. Every defender of the car is claiming the ones that don't like it are poor kids or fanboys and they need to "get over it". There's nothing to get over because no one really cares. I know I don't. I'm just laughing at all of the comparison talk or "stacking up" talk. It's beside the point. Seriously, it's like going on a Mustang forum and trying to justify why their new mustang was just built by volkswagen and that it's a rebadged vw golf. No one would care because it's not a Ford. It really is that simple.
 

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FWIW, I watched that video above when I saw it on my youtube feed. I didn't care about the MKV. I just happen to be a fan of Engineering Explained. He could talk about the science behind paint drying and I would watch it.
 

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10'S BABY
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So much hate for this thing. I am curious to see how this plays out. I know very little about the B58, but I would be interested in this car at 600 reliable HP. Is that such a thing with the B58? We will see.

There are already a few guys that are very intelligent and very capable of serious modifications working on this so let's give it a chance.
 

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I don't get the whole 700hp thing. Sure its great that your car can handle 1000hp, but who cares. What's fun to me is going around turns and accelerating out of the apex. For that 300-400 hp is fine. If you are into drag racing and highway pulls then i understand the need for gobs of power. I'm still convinced our mkiv's were an anomaly and have made any future Supra doomed regardless lol
 

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It's not whether or not the ENGINE can handle more power. We all KNOW BMW makes good engines. It's the plastic shit ATTACHED to said engines that fail, plastic couplers , and water hoses . Shitty metal for water pumps, VANOS failures..etc.
It wont be a RELIABLE 600+whp.

And with a shortened wheelbase and TALLER height? Not gonna be a good ride !!!
 

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When I saw the thread title I thought - just wait a few years and the engine will break down without us doing anything................
In all honesty I don't think the engine is that bad (That it would break on you while doing nothing to it) and a statement like that is heavily ignorant. Let's put it this way the motor has won 3 awards and it's in multiple platforms from the 2-series m Edition, 340i, and the x5. That is a pretty wide variety and the motor is nearly 3 years old at this point and Toyota didn't tune it heavily. So if you literally do nothing to the motor I don't think the engine is going to break like you claim it does (In fact I'd be willing to wager money on that) .

Let me talk so real world now as a buyer. I was heavily considering the LC500 now because of this BMW-Toyota Z4 however the LC500 has massive complaints (Go to the Lexus Forums https://www.clublexus.com/forums/lc-model-2018/903249-too-flawed-to-live-with.html ) And the major complaint overall is how shitty the infotainment system is and how power seems to be lacking at that price point. So the fact that Toyota went to BMW for the interior I'm actually okay with now even with the shitty beeping sounds and warnings. Toyota/Lexus tends to make heavy cars unless they use massive carbon fiber which wrecks the pricepoint and their engines don't seem to make up for their weight.

I would have preferred a Yamaha Motor, but then the Supra would have been a Naturally Aspirated more then likely. I want a Turbo on my next car. So anyways I've decided that I'm going to buy a used 2014 Porsche Turbo S, but if I didn't pick up a Porsche Turbo S I might have picked up this Supra (Maybe). Anyways it seemed like 50/50 the dudes selling the LCs ended up picking up a Porsche or a Corvette.
 

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I just want to see the how the thing will perform on a dyno with BPU, then APU and so on...until then i will hold my back on my reservations.
 

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IF you read the comments on this thread
, there is actually alot of support for this motor which I suspected and didn't surprise me. At the end of the day this motor is pretty decent puts out decent to good power and get's a good mark on fuel efficiency. These are 2 check boxes that Toyota really wanted. So the only question remains is how durable is the motor and how much boost can it handle?

Here:
The B58 is a brilliant Engine to modify
Here in Germany the Tuners love them
Only with a Tune (not Hardware change at all) the Car will have around 400-420HP.
With a Downpipe of course more.
And now think of the Development from all the Hybrid Turbo Companys.
600hp and more only with a few good on parts is very EASY

I say for around 4000$ you can double the Power on the B58
How much you have to spend to double the Power on the 2jz?
New Turbo, new Header,new Exhaust and Downpipe, new Intercooler , new injectors ,new Gas Pump, new ECU and many more things.
With around 4k$ this is not possible to build a 600HP 2JZ with good parts (No Chinese junk parts that Brake more then they Work)

Dont get me wrong i Love the 2J (because a old BMW M GmbH Ingenieur was involved in the Design of the 2J short block) , but the B58 is way better to make double the stock Power.
And who needs more than 600HP for a daily Driver?

Greetings from Germany ����
I have a 2017 BMW M240i which has the B58 motor in it. It's a great motor, and I have a lot of fun (maybe too much fun) with my car. The car is still under warranty; so I don't want to make any mods to it.......yet. However, for everyday driving; you don't need to. The car has plenty of get up and go. It's quick and nimble and has a great sound. ALSO, something you didn't talk about is gas mileage. I believe the "real" Supra got something like 21 mpg. I took a road trip up the west coast with the car and was getting 35mpg. You get all that performance with great gas mileage (provided you aren't "racing" around town, then no engine can help you there). So, what people will be seeing is a car (Z4 and Supra) they can have a lot of fun driving everyday, gets good gas mileage, and has plenty of performance when you need it (aka - passing retarded drivers). AND has a little more power at its disposal to be able to do things like autocross and HPD. Personally, can't wait for Grand Tour (or some one else) do a side by side comparison. Probably won't see much of a difference, but will be cool to see. Also, will be interesting to see what modifications start to pop up for this engine.

Not to drive anyone away from this channel, but "Engineering Explained" goes into some good details about how the motor works (and compares it a bit to the N55). Definitely worth checking out.
 

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In all honesty I don't think the engine is that bad (That it would break on you while doing nothing to it) and a statement like that is heavily ignorant. ........
You "think". That's fine - and that is an opinion.
My half-satirical post refers to previous posts in THIS THREAD about modifications to the engine - the part about "doing something" to the engine.
The other half of the post basis is based on MY experience with BMWs, and BMW drivetrains that have been a major headache and expense to my son who, unfortunately, could not resist buying BMWs multiple times, even though they all "broke". (The trouble and expense did NOT escape me as I sometimes had to help with those cars). Further, 3 years of experience on anything BMW, IMHO, is useless, given the reliability data that exists for BMWs in general. I don't lease, period, and I buy cars that I expect to last and perform well reliably for a long time.
You can have your opinions and believe anything you want, but that part of your comment was "heavily ignorant".
 

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You "think". That's fine - and that is an opinion.
My half-satirical post refers to previous posts in THIS THREAD about modifications to the engine - the part about "doing something" to the engine.
The other half of the post basis is based on MY experience with BMWs, and BMW drivetrains that have been a major headache and expense to my son who, unfortunately, could not resist buying BMWs multiple times, even though they all "broke". (The trouble and expense did NOT escape me as I sometimes had to help with those cars). Further, 3 years of experience on anything BMW, IMHO, is useless, given the reliability data that exists for BMWs in general. I don't lease, period, and I buy cars that I expect to last and perform well reliably for a long time.
You can have your opinions and believe anything you want, but that part of your comment was "heavily ignorant".
In my MKIV Supra which I've owned since 1999 I've blown Headgaskets and popped my radiator blown out my control arms (Rear) and have replaced multiple parts on it. It isn't bulletproof by any means, and over the years I've replaced a great deal of parts to keep it running like new. And I'm not generalizing on Toyota I'm talking about my MKIV supra.
 

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In my MKIV Supra which I've owned since 1999 I've blown Headgaskets and popped my radiator blown out my control arms (Rear) and have replaced multiple parts on it. It isn't bulletproof by any means, and over the years I've replaced a great deal of parts to keep it running like new. And I'm not generalizing on Toyota I'm talking about my MKIV supra.
I believe you are in the wrong thread. You need to get back in the MKIV forums to discuss maintenance issues.
 

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I believe you are in the wrong thread. You need to get back in the MKIV forums to discuss maintenance issues.
Okay here I'll get back on topic, the motor is a B58, what about the B58 is unreliable or breaks? Not talking about BMW, or Toyota or the2JZ-GTE. Specfically the B-58. Because as you originally stated:
Just wait a few years and the engine will break down without us doing anything................
And somehow when I call you out on this statement you're taking offense. So tell me what's wrong with the B-58, I've been studying and researching on the motor for the last 5 days and the only cons that I know of are that it's placed backwards but it's a Chain vs a Belt so technically the chain should hold up twice as long as the belt if not longer. But I'd be curious to know what you feel is so bad about the B58 specifically.
 

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Back from the dead here, not sure how many OG's are still around, but I have been keeping an eye on the new Supra and thought I would put my two cents in here. Grab a beer cause this is not going to be a short post.

For a very long time, I really wanted to love first the N54, N55, and B58 engines. Keep in mind, this post is coming from a guy who has owned two M3's.




Let's start with a few salient things posted about the B58 on the Bimmer forums:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1340302&page=2#post21119255
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
I love the B58 but I dont think its a WHOLE lot better as it stands in the 340 than the N55 which is itself a venerable engine.. B58 has been mostly trouble-free thus far & got alil extra punch and I barely notice any turbo lag at all
Your article says everything that needs to be said.. ie B58 closed deck w/ more room upside for BMW to reuse for higher power variants


a response->The forums are filled with B58 engine issues, including engine recalls. The issues never end, from coolant (water cooling), turbos. Interesting, had they ever considered that coolant does not do well at -10C and below? Either case, , in one year the forums filled more engine problems entries than N55 may yet to do in 10 years...

Originally Posted by harkes View Post
I read/hear so much about how the B58 is SO MUCH better than the N55. Apparently it has longer stroke while still reving as freely as the N55, but what are the other advantages? Please be objective here - or at least try


a response->Forums are filled with B58 engine problems, more so than N55 could ever achieve if we multiplied its entries over 7 years x5. Turbos, water coolants, engine recalls etc. Which answers your question: have yet to meet an N55 user whom, with extensive mods, had any issues (nor myself) vs have yet to meet a B58 M Perf owner without stock issues. Winner? N55 hands down.



Wow, it sounds like N55 is the way to go then:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1430379&page=3
I will chime in here. 13yr BMW master tech and indy BMW shop owner. Here's my past 6 months experiences with N55 engines.
Started a small car lot, bought a 2012 X5 N55 with "engine noise" at 82k. Assumed belt tensioner or something. Nope. Spun rod bearing cyl #2. Replaced engine with used motor ($4400 used engine) and installed all new rod bearings and bolts to be safe with updated S55 numbered bearings- car happy and sold.

Then 1 month later, a new customer brings in 2011 335i N55 E90 with 98k on clock, just bought at some random used car lot- has knock. Spun bearing. Dealer wont help him (less than 24 hours of his ownership).
Customer brings in 2011 X5 3.5i for PPI. Road tested, full load at 4500rpm I hear a knock. Rev up in neutral back at the shop, 2k rpm- rod knock. Pull out oil filter, full of metal shavings. Tell customer not to buy it. He brings me another X5 N55 today, pulled filter to see that one and it was full of shavings too but no noise (92k dealer maintained at 8-10k intervals).
Last week another shop towed in a 2011 X5 with N55 not running. They replaced a bunch of parts to no avail. Finally figured out DME had failed and wouldn't fire the injectors or coils. $2500 later it runs again and customer wants to dump it and run.

I Bought another N55 X5 with cyl #6 misfire and air plausibility codes. Removed valve cover after extensive time and testing to check valvetronics. Camshafts are rusted and lobes are worn to point of not opening valves at idle- replaced both camshafts, and then shortly after the valvetronics motor failed. back apart again....

In my recent experience, The N55 is a fragile and dangerous engine to own past 80k. I owned a 2012 X5 from 19k miles to 95k miles and it had its share of issues (57k OFHG failed, 59k valvetronics motor failed, 84k PCV/valve cover failed). I have a 2015 435i currently and it scares me to think of owning it long term... I know I only seen broken cars as thats what I fix for a living so maybe there are bunch of N55 success stories out there, but lately they seem to be failing left and right, maybe someone can encourage me that its only a temporary wave but my local dealers refer to the N55 as "Total Junk" and they see tons of rod bearing failures there and wont help most customers!
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1256319
That metallic noise you are hearing is from your crank. I had the same issue on my N54 and had bearing failure around 85,000 miles and I do track my car heavily. Dackelone can attest to that. I was told that by my mechanic here in Germany when he checked it out. He also stated to me that N54 and N55 bearings will last around that mileage before they start wearing down and failing. My engine is getting rebuilt right now with a new crank and bearings. Everything else checked out fine.

I would stay away from a used engine because you don't know how the previous owner treated it. If you can afford it, I would just get it rebuilt. That way, you know that you have a sort of 0 mileage engine under the hood again. Food for thought.

My damage to my wallet here in Germany is close to 8K euros ($9100). Compared to a new engine here in Germany that run for almost 15K euros and that is just the head and block.
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1256319&page=2
Looking at other forums, there are a lot of people having issues with rods and bearings...from stock to modified engines. My gut feeling is that there will be a class action down the road, there has to be!




And I'm not even going to get started with the N54; it is well known the N55 that replaced the N54 is a less complicated engine that experiences less problems, despite the fact that the changes were for cost-saving measures. But how about the S65?

http://www.bebearings.com/Overview.html
Historical Background of S65 Bearing Issue

It was very easy to ignore the very first blown motors because most seemed to originate from highly modified cars. Very early there was one blown NA motor from a guy in Thailand who was "custom tuned" by a local tuner. His motor blew and it cost a lot of money to replace it. Tuning by a local, unknown tuner was another reason to ignore this blown motor.

But about the same time, the first few blown motors showed up on bone stock M3's as well. These cars were totally stock with very low mileage. As time went on, more and more blown motors showed up, again NA motors with low miles. It seemed if you made it past 25,000 miles, then your motor would likely survive the warranty period.

Various theories were discussed to explain this phenomena. The theories ranged from inferior oil pump design to bearing clearance issues. But nobody had any data to support one argument over the other.

Discovering S65 Bearing Issue...



Hell, let's go all the way back to the S54:

https://www.langracing.com/finding-a-real-solution-to-the-bmw-s54-rod-bearing-failure/
When we first began looking at the S54 knowing its history of rod bearing failure we immediately noticed how small the rod bearings were compared to other engines we’d built. To be more specific, the width of them is relatively narrow compared to other engines that are designed to make that much power. When you look at the rest of the engine you see similar ideas in other areas. BMW made every attempt to eliminate friction surfaces in this engine to increase efficiency and power. This is, of course, is every automotive engineer’s goal. The expense of doing this of course can mean that engine reliability can suffer. Every engine will have a weak point at which it will fail first, or at least most commonly. For the S54 this is the rod bearing. For another engine it might be the rod or the cylinder wall, or something else. Whether its a design failure or intentional, the S54 has a very well documented history of consuming rod bearings at a rate faster than desired...



Combine all this with the spray-in cylinder liners the new Supra engine is using instead of sleeves, which is exactly what many suspect is what is plaguing the 2018+ 5.0 coyote engines in the new Mustangs with the "BBQ Tick" a.k.a. piston slap that is causing Ford to replace engines... seriously, go a head and google "Mustang BBQ tick".

Now, let's take a trip down memory lane and remember what exactly made the MKIV Supra a Supra.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-why-the-toyota-supras-2jz-is-such-a-legendary-eng-1794949464
From the factory, the 2JZ-GTE is already a pretty special engine. It’s got dual overhead camshafts, four valves per cylinder, a distributor-less ignition system, liquid-cooled sequential turbos keeping the power band nice and broad, and a “square” (one to one) bore-to-stroke ratio that provided a great compromise between low-end grunt and high-end power. Start tuning it, though, and the engine goes from “special” to downright supernatural.

The reason why the 2JZ-GTE is so prolific in the tuning scene is because of its strength. Its iron block is tough as nails, its seven main bearings—despite only being held by two bolts each—are absolutely gargantuan and hold the crankshaft firmly, its forged 12-counterweight steel crankshaft can handle huge power and high engine speeds, the oil pump and water pump can take the heavy mods without failure, the fully-closed deck means the engine can withstand enormous cylinder pressures, forged connecting rods are stout, and the oil-cooled cast aluminum pistons can handle a beating as well.

This all means you shouldn’t worry about doubling the 2JZ-GTE’s horsepower via mods. In fact, most tuners consider the 2JZ-GTE’s bottom end as capable of withstanding up to 800 ponies. Yes, 800 horsepower on stock internals. And many tuners have cranked theirs into the four-figure range with some more work.
(cont.)
 

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(cont.)

All this, from something built in 1993........

To sum up my feelings based on a lot of reading about how BMW builds engines and owning a couple M3's myself: BMW are fucking MASTERS at marketing their brand to the public. But their design philosophy could not be any more different than that of the Japanese, particularly Toyota, and particularly the philosophy behind the MkIV Supra. BMW builds fun short-lived disposable engines that are built for cars that are meant to be leased. There is zero profit incentive for them to overbuild engines like the Japanese do, especially what Toyota did for the Supra. They don't need to, there are millions of people who have already drunk of the koolaid and have been tricked into thinking they make really great engines.

I personally like having my cake and eating it to when it comes to engine performance, engine longevity beyond a lease period, and not dealing with frequent and expensive parts breaking once my car is out of warranty (as I suspect many enthusiasts on this board do as well). Which is also why, besides many Japanese performance engines, I also am a big fan of the GM LS series of engines.

If Toyota would have simply thrown an old 2JZ into an updated, lighter weight, stiffer chassis, it would have been more of a Supra than a car with a BMW engine. Hell, throw a hybrid engine on top of it for good measure like they did with the NSX if you want. But by going BMW for the powertrain, Toyota does not even seem to have the most basic understanding about what made the MKIV Supra legendary in the first place. They had an opportunity to recreate a legend, and they blew it.
 

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Okay here I'll get back on topic, the motor is a B58, what about the B58 is unreliable or breaks? Not talking about BMW, or Toyota or the2JZ-GTE. Specfically the B-58. Because as you originally stated:


And somehow when I call you out on this statement you're taking offense. So tell me what's wrong with the B-58, I've been studying and researching on the motor for the last 5 days and the only cons that I know of are that it's placed backwards but it's a Chain vs a Belt so technically the chain should hold up twice as long as the belt if not longer. But I'd be curious to know what you feel is so bad about the B58 specifically.
I am not taking offense - except for the fact that you are not reading and/or comprehending what I said, period. The B58 is BMW - that is enough for me.
I explained quite fully why I would not take a BMW if you gave it to me. Buy what ever you want but just shut up about this to me - you know NOTHING about my experience with BMWs and I can personally attest to their crappy reliability. Don't even consider bringing up anything about any surveys or testing of a period less than 10 years - that is the minimum time I am interested in as far as reliability.
Feel free to argue with someone else - since that seems to be your purpose here.
 

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