Supra Forums banner

Lets talk oil temperature and pressure.

1.3K views 12 replies 8 participants last post by  Kingtal0n  
#1 · (Edited)
A bit of a long post but hoping I can get some guidance from the OG’s here with some oil pressure analysis.

Let me preface by saying the engine was built and wrapped up this passed summer, oiling system details as follows:

-GTE block with deleted squirters
-VVTi head conversion with PHR oil feed conversion
-Chase bays thermostatic oil sandwich adapter (pressure reading from here)
-Setrab 19 row oil cooler mounted where oem intercooler was (went with this set up due to the oem oil cooler being trash from previous bearing failure)
-Drift motion modified oil pump
-Oil temp reading directly from the oil pan
-Redline 10w30

When the engine was first started and put on the dyno to start breaking it in, we started with 10w40 per my engine builders specs but found pressure to be high (i dont remember the exact numbers) so we dropped down to 10w30 and pressure sat at a slightly better number but still seemed high to me.
At this point I was seeing 35psi at idle, 85-90psi @ 2000-3000rpm while cruising and spikes to 106psi during redline pulls.
My oil temps sit around 170F with some peaks after harder driving to 185F, no sure if this plays into things or not but thought I would include the info.

I started reading about optimal oil temperature and from what I gather the temps im seeing are on the cooler side and it should be closer to 190-195F for normal operation and occasionally up to 205F to remove any moisture in the oil.

At this point i started thinking the oil cooler may be a little big so completely blocked air flow to it but that didn’t really do much.
Not sure how much a 20F variance in temperature would play into relieving some oil pressure though.

After getting the car back with its new engine, tune and making good power, it drove great but after 2 months and 1500 miles I unfortunately blew a cam seal on the intake side. My catch can set up is more than adequate with 2 x -10 lines going from the valve covers to the catch can in, with 2 x -10 lines out recirculated back into the turbo intake so we have ruled excessive crank case pressure out. The catch can was bone dry after 1500 miles.

So the only thing that sticks out at this point are the oil temps/pressure.

When my cam seal was replaced, my mechanic/tuner had a look at things and noticed I was running the PHR vvti oil feed conversion kit and came to the conclusion that there may be excessive pressure going into the vvti module due to the oil line being pretty thick so he added a restrictor to reduce oil pressure going into the vvti module. We're not certain this was even the issue but its a shot in the dark so time will tell.

I still think that my overall engine oil pressure is too high so I checked with my engine builder to see if it would be ok to drop down to a 5w20 weight oil and see if it helps reduce pressure a bit and he said it should be fine but not to go any thinner than that.

Put the car back on the dyno last week to check oil pressure and the only variable at this point is the restrictor on the vvti oil feed and 5w20 oil.

Unfortunately the thinner oil didn’t make much of a difference if any but we did get slightly higher consistent oil temperatures of 180-185F.

So now were a little stumped and the only other thing I can think of is to bypass the cooler to see if we can get the oil to stay around 195F but I don’t think a 10F change in temperature would alleviate oil pressure to a more acceptable range. Id think I need a drop of about 10-15psi across the board.

Im wondering if anyone’s engine is running similar pressure and temps without any trouble?
Am I way over thinking this?
 
#2 ·
Its a bit of a hassle ofcourse, but I would really take the driftmotion oil pump off and replace it with just a plain Aisin 2jzGE vvti one.
You dont need all that flow and pressure, especially not with a oil squirter delete.
All your pressures seem excissive, 106psi at redline is quite high. I have a na-t with vvti head and I get about 5 bar (75psi) at redline becuase the bypass spring opens, and when the oil is nice and warm I get about 1 bar (15psi) per 1k revs oil pressure while driving. Minimum pressure at idle when warm is about 2 bar (35psi), all of this with a stock Aisin 2jzGE vvti oil pump.
 
#3 ·
I actually had a similar experience this last year with my built motor.

Built GE block so no oil squirters, but running 10w-30 weight oil, PHR 19 row cooler kit and Mocal thermostatic sandwich plate.

I also had higher idle "hot" oil pressure. 32-35psi with oil temps in the 160-170 degree range and it was nearly impossibly to get it higher than this. So I started to worrying I was diluting the oil because it never got hot enough.

One day I decided to take off the sandwich plate and cooler. I threw my filter back on my NA filter housing. Low and behold, while cruising I could get oil temp up to 185-195 depending on ambient temp that day. Under boost with a few pulls or in heavy traffic, I could get 205-215.

Perfect! Now on 10w-30 my oil pressure fully hot at idle sits around 20-23psi and might bump oil viscosity.

If you dont have a reason to run an oil cooler, I would probably just remove it.
 
#4 ·
Pretty normal oil pressure readings for a GTE pump on a non squirter setup. All our engines runs this sort of combo, usually with 10w60 oil. 10w20 is way too thin imo. As oil heats up it will drop pressure anyway, 175F is a bit on the cold side, you'll probably drop another 14psi if you get it closer to 200-210F under usage.

Cam seals probably installed on the piss/not flush, oil pressure wont cause them to blow out. I ran an AN6 vvti line for years with no restrictors, never had an issue.
 
#5 ·
Your oil cooling system is almost too effective, because it's keeping oil temps basically at the thermostatic opening point.
First, I'd call Chase Bays and ask if there's any way to move the thermostat opening point to ~200*f. Sometimes these can be adjusted with more preload in the relief valve, or a new one installed - I can't speak for the Chase Bays adapter on that, but the rest of the part looks good. This would be the ideal solution because you'll get to correct oil operating temps and keep them, and keep the high effectiveness of your 19 row oil cooler.

Aside from that, simply reducing the size of the oil cooler will help. Basically you need a cooler that isn't so effective at keeping oil temps at the thermostatic range. Covering the cooler isn't effective enough in cases like this.

It's also impossible to make oil viscosity recommendations without knowing the clearances used in engine assembly - but I'd strongly consider a quality 0w40 or 0w30 over any 5w20 or 0w20 regardless of build specs.

The 0w means its SAE 0 viscosity at 32*F, the 30 or 40 meaning an SAE30 or SAE40 respectively when at operating temp. Going with a 0w helps with cold startup oil overpressure problems and also reduces pumping losses for fast initial lubirication at engine startup. As it warms up, it gets thicker commensurate with what you want at high HP/high bearing loads. But observed pressures will tend to be lower with a 0w30 than a 5w30 or 10w30 regardless of engine temp.
 
#6 ·
Thanks for the input guys.

After some further research it seems my current readings are normal-ish given where my pressure sensor is mounted since its on the sandwich adapter.

After digging up a thread from last year and chatting with dre99gsx, it looks like he had the same issue as me, he moved his sensor back to the oem port and the readings dropped by 10-20psi, netting more realistic oil pressure readings.
we’re gonna relocate the sensor back to the oem port and see if the readings look more acceptable from there.. I’ll report back so there’s some data for anyone looking in the future.

@Wreckless
I agree the oil temp isn’t where it’s supposed to be, this has been a concern since day one so it’s nice to have some feedback that my gut feeling was correct.
200F seems to be the sweet spot, I didn’t even think of seeing if I could adjust the thermostat on the sandwich adapter, this would be the ideal option as there was so much care in installing the oil cooler in a neat and tidy way it would be a shame to remove the whole set up.
 
#7 ·
I'm perplexed by the same issue you are facing. On my vvti gte motor with stock internals my oil temps rarely go above 150F and idle oil pressure is around 35 psi but goes up to 75 psi when revving hard. I'm going to replace both sensors and recalibrate them to see if the sensors and/or calibration in my maxxecu could be the issue. I'm running a medium sized oil cooler and I live in a very hot climate in thailand where it is almost always 90F or hotter every day. In theory I shouldn't have any problems getting this engine oil up to the normal operating temperature quickly in this climate... especially when you consider the car is often stuck in bumper to bumper traffic with the AC on.
 
#8 ·
Another thought - what's your engine coolant thermostat temp? The colder TRD 160*F thermostats can also cause problems in not allowing the oil up to optimum temps. That cool of a thermostat is fine when you're dealing with the OE wet oil cooler. But once you're on a full-flow dedicated air-to-oil cooler you're not getting any extra temp added to the oil to bring it up to operating temp via the stock coolant/oil heat exchanger, so you can run into oil temp problems like this.
 
#9 ·
I also thought about this too because my coolant is kept consistently around 176F and almost never goes much higher. Im running the PHR twin spal fans with their shroud and it works amazingly well. However, I was thinking that this might be one reason why my oil temps almost never go above 150F. I'm using the mishimoto racing thermostat.
 
#10 ·
Thermostat is a good point. I kept the oem 190F and still had issues. Oil pressure sensor was in the union bolt for the filter housing, factory pressure sensor in factory location for dummy light, and oil temp sensor was in the sump of the oil pan.

The idea of changing the pressure relief on the sandwich plate was something I didnt think of! May have to take a look at that idea if its possible with the Mocal plate.
 
#12 ·
My catch can set up is more than adequate with 2 x -10 lines going from the valve covers to the catch can in, with 2 x -10 lines out recirculated back into the turbo intake so we have ruled excessive crank case pressure out
There is nothing venting the crankcase when you are in vacuum - the turbo intake only has a strong suction when in boost. You need to have a line going to the intake manifold from the intake side valve cover, and a line to the turbo intake pipe from the exhaust side valve cover. I bet there is condensation being left behind in the crankcase. That's what the PCV system is for.

Just look at the factory setup - whether you are in vacuum or boost, the crankcase is always being ventilated, with the fresh air coming in through the opposite valve cover. If you have both valve covers venting to the same place, where is the fresh air coming from? Leaks around the gaskets?

Sorry, did not mean to derail as this may not make much difference in oil temp. I usually try to stay out of the crankcase ventilation threads, too much of an uphill battle. Carry on.

Al
 
#13 ·
Oil temp
Thermostat the oil to maintain minimum say 200*F around 198 to 205*F minimum, it can be measured from the pan.
high end of target is best near the boiling point of water 210 to 215*F is pretty good for daily drivers.
Keep coolant near the oil temps, say 198*F coolants and 212*F oil is perfect.

The oil does 'thin out' it's hydrocarbon chains unfold when the energy of rising temperatures is sufficient to keep them from interacting more with them selves than the solvent but the rate is not linear with respect to temperature, for example an oil may thin out much more between 140 and 185*F (because of chain unfolding at that specific range )than it does from 0 to 140*F or from 190 to 220*F, all the chains are already unfolded after some point and the rest is related to internal energy (temperature, velocity, pressure, acoustics, etc... any form of energy)

Oil Flow
Pressure increase when using high viscosity oils is reducing flow, usually Bernoulli's boils down to P1 + qV1 = P2 + qV2 for automotive fluid systems, I think it tells us that pressure goes up along a fuel rail as velocity drops after each injector and for volumetric pumping, energy is conserved and Bernoulli's is actually a modified form of an equation called Energy equation, when comparing to conditions with the same pump output (an engine oil pumps is volumetric and moves the same volume per revolution of fairly in-compressible fluid) that anytime pressure changes it will impact velocity and therefore flow through some area. We measure higher pressure the velocity has to pay and the volumetric flow rate is made by Q = Velocity*Area.

Now I know this information does little to help with any suggestions because when you understand that changing oil components and crankcase settings also changes oil flow and you need some way to measure oil flow... I believe there are racing engine oil systems out there are tweaked to specific flow rates not just pressure values.

In terms of math I've seen which compares pressure and flow to some bearing system, I do have an example problem from a textbook to look at. The question (A) is to find the minimum pressure at the inlet of the bearing(radius=0.1m) to ensure outflow on the other end of the lubrication system, and I think it is worthwhile to discuss the variables. And this is a simplified form of Poisuille Flow minus Couette flow.

(3πωR²µ / h²) = P1 - Pa(atmospheric pressure)
h is bearing clearance (meter)
R radius (meter)
ω angular velocity (radians/sec)
µ viscosity (Pa seconds)
W is bearing length (meter)

As bearing clearance gets larger, the whole term is getting smaller.
The minimum required pressure is getting smaller as the bearing clearance getting larger.
The radius and angular velocity increase pressure requirement as does viscosity.

For Torque required to rotate the shaft against friction due to shear stress due to 'Coutte flow in the in the direction of motion' ,it gives
πR³ωWµ / h² = Torque(Newton meter)

Ok all the theory aside what is a practical approach. Make sure the oil is splashing like crazy when you rev the engine somehow, doesn't it shoot out of the oil cap or something? If you've got alot of pressure, fine. But does it have alot of flow also? Look for signs of incredible oil flow. Just confirm its really gushing when it should. With that kind of pressure and any RPM I would definitely want an Oil pressure datalog to confirm its not accumulating and starving the pickup. That is where this is all going in terms of gushing and splashing first hand, is the pickup and pressure, A1 sort that out before any thrashings.
Next, it all comes down to what comes out of the PCV system under boost. If you can pull a 1"Hg vacuum on the crankcase using OEM PCV or some vacuum pump, and 0.01% of oil (after 20k miles its forming a light golden film on the tube just before the turbo is ideal, it will protect the turbo and help trap debris) comes out along with that suction applied, you are golden. If its picking up notticeable oil, any liquid amount, that is sign of big problems that point to crankcase leaking (sucking air, it isn't sealed up right), or oil baffle flooding(pumping too much oil to the head), or some windage issues, or some internal plate or baffle is removed or damaged, or some unacceptable blow-by from too loose in the bore pistons. That is the definitie sequence of events: Oil pickup does not starve, signs that oil is splashing and flowing like it should, make vacuum in the crankcase during boost, inspect PCV system for liquid oil.