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LSD clunking

18K views 60 replies 12 participants last post by  Olav 
#1 ·
So wanted some input.
Found out I have a LSD in my diff
A01A 200mm
Believe it's a Cusco RS
Issue I'm having is that when turning at low speed there is a LOUD audible clunking noise under load only.
If you take the turn without load, no noise.
Just replaced all bushings related to the diff...
Any thoughts on how to quite this up? Using Mobil 1 diff oil.
I didn't know if a friction modifier would help or if anyone had any thoughts?
252509

252508
 
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#4 ·
I would recommend Amsoil Slip-Lok limited slip additive, but that looks like a gear type limited slip, no?

A gear shop I am working with puts Lucas conventional 85W-140 in everything. They claim it "climbs" the gear to above the oil level and keeps the gear cooler - just like it does in those display things in Advance Auto with the little gears. They said synthetic is too slippery. I am about to switch to it.

Al
 
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#5 ·
This is very common with "clutch type LSD's", after spending years on racetracks on drift events i heard these noises all the time. A friend of mine has a Kaaz LSD in his S13, it has the exact same noise as you describe and he's never had any issues with it's operation. If it truly is supposed to make this noise though i'm not sure, all i can tell you is it's very common. I believe the noise comes from the clutch packs engaging and the diff "locking" which it is designed to do under load (hence why it's all quiet with no load). It can probably be resolved by making the clutch packs engage less aggressively (i believe this can be adjusted on these types of LSD's).

For the record, I'm not by any stretch a professional in regards to differentials, but from how i understand these units operate this is what happens and what can be done.
 
#15 ·
I have the OS Giken in my Mk3, and have occasionally had the clunking noise. Seemed to only happen in one place, a slightly uphill, right hand turn, from a stop sign on my way home. Other than that, and maybe one other place, I've only heard it a few times. It's definitely disturbing to hear, but I haven't heard it in so long that I never thought I needed to look into it.
 
#16 ·
As i said in my first post, this is very common on most clutch type LSD's (just google "lsd clunking noise"), it is so common in fact that Kaaz has a dedicated "silent" version of the same LSD.

I thought the OS Giken units was noise free though since most of them have a pretty different design than "the usual" LSD's. And yeah, it is definitely disturbing to hear, in my friends S13 track car with solid bushings on all diff mounts and all suspension parts in the rear it sounds like the diff is about to come exploding through the car. Never had any issues with it though, and he's had it since it was his daily driver, almost 15 years i believe.
 
#19 ·
Decent video on clutch type LSD's. Just as i said earlier in this thread, this video also shines good light on the fact that you have to set up a clutch type LSD differently to be good at a specific application. This is why i made my original statement that i think the torsen, or any gear/helical diff, is the best for a multipurpose road car. The torsen is going to be good in all applications, it won't be the best for all of them, but is going to perform great generally speaking. The clutch type LSD on the other hand, need to be set up again if the car is taken from a time attack event to a drag racing event the next day to perform optimal.
 
#18 ·
I have a question that is on the same topic (perhaps). Which Toyota OEM Torsen-type LSD will fit in the 1995 NA differential housing (without changing axle shaft length, pinion or ring gears)? My guess is the LSD from a 1995 Twin-turbo with an automatic transmission.
Next question is how to obtain one and identify it to make sure what it is?

* Before you tell me there's a thread on this, I will inform you that I read it and I still don't know that answer. *

Here are some examples that I found on ebaby:
Toyota Genuine JZX100 1JZ-GTE Torsen LSD Differential JDM From Japan F/S (*no part number given)
2001-2005 OEM Lexus IS300 Automatic LSD Limited Slip Differential M98 |S6438 (*can't find this part number)
Toyota genuine JZS161 Aristo 2JZ-GTE Turbo Differential Final 3.8 JDM (*no part number given)
Toyota Aristo GS300 JZS161 Genuine Differential Final 3.8 JDM From Japan F/S (*no part number given)
JDM 93 94 95 96 97 TOYOTA SUPRA JZA80 MK4 2JZ-GE 5 SPEED M/T REAR DIFFERENTIAL (*has the word "LSD" painted on it)
JDM 1993 - 2002 Toyota Supra MK4 Aristo Torsen LSD Rear Differential Only 4.08 R (* this one looks correct at least)

I think this is enough to illustrate the problem...
252605
Auto part Differential Rotor Tool accessory
 
#20 ·
I have a question that is on the same topic (perhaps). Which Toyota OEM Torsen-type LSD will fit in the 1995 NA differential housing (without changing axle shaft length, pinion or ring gears)? My guess is the LSD from a 1995 Twin-turbo with an automatic transmission.
Next question is how to obtain one and identify it to make sure what it is?

* Before you tell me there's a thread on this, I will inform you that I read it and I still don't know that answer. *

Here are some examples that I found on ebaby:
Toyota Genuine JZX100 1JZ-GTE Torsen LSD Differential JDM From Japan F/S (*no part number given)
2001-2005 OEM Lexus IS300 Automatic LSD Limited Slip Differential M98 |S6438 (*can't find this part number)
Toyota genuine JZS161 Aristo 2JZ-GTE Turbo Differential Final 3.8 JDM (*no part number given)
Toyota Aristo GS300 JZS161 Genuine Differential Final 3.8 JDM From Japan F/S (*no part number given)
JDM 93 94 95 96 97 TOYOTA SUPRA JZA80 MK4 2JZ-GE 5 SPEED M/T REAR DIFFERENTIAL (*has the word "LSD" painted on it)
JDM 1993 - 2002 Toyota Supra MK4 Aristo Torsen LSD Rear Differential Only 4.08 R (* this one looks correct at least)

I think this is enough to illustrate the problem...
There is a lot of information HERE that might be of help to you, scroll down until you find the "differential" section. There is also good info on what codes are on the different differentials and what they mean in there somewhere.
 
#23 ·
You didn't specify what you have already been reading, and since you stated "thread" i assumed you searched on supraforums, that's why i linked you the one from mkivsupraz.nz, since it's not on here, and is a article, not a forum thread...

To answer your question, i went back to the "thread" you say you read through and found the answer for you. Any diff with the A01B designation will fit. There are countless pictures on the internet to help you identify what said diff looks like.
 
#25 ·
I know a bunch of people running 1000hp or more through "big housing" stock torsen differentials without any problems. Fredric Aasbo (formula drift champion) ran a stock supra diff on his 2019 corolla with 850 ft-lb of toque, and I'm pretty sure it was the torsen version. Is it the best for 2000hp+ drag cars? Maybe not, but I'm pretty confident in saying it's more than good enough for 99% of supra owners out there. You can't say the diff is trash because it didn't work out for 1% of the supra drivers of highly specific application cars.
 
#24 ·
I am impressed with your quick response. And you are correct, I assumed that it was a link to the thread on this forum, my bad.

However, I am aware of the " A01B " designation. If I could find somebody selling the diff that could verify that it had that designation, everything would be "golden". I am not sure that viewing "countless pictures" is going to help me identify it.

Any way, sorry for implying that you didn't read my post.
 
#26 ·
I am impressed with your quick response. And you are correct, I assumed that it was a link to the thread on this forum, my bad.

However, I am aware of the " A01B " designation. If I could find somebody selling the diff that could verify that it had that designation, everything would be "golden". I am not sure that viewing "countless pictures" is going to help me identify it.

Any way, sorry for implying that you didn't read my post.
No worries. I don't think the diffs are stamped with their original designation on them ( i might be wrong), so the best way to know is to look at the manufacturer plate on the car it came from. Serious people who salvage cars like this for a living always write down the number on the diff when the part is taken off the vehicle. We use a swedish guy who lives in Thailand to source parts like this, and they are always numbered.

If we need to continnue this discussion you should make a dedicated thread as we have kind of gone completely off topic here.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I'll offer this about the stock Torsen LSD:

There are actually two types that were made for the A80 Supra, Z30 Soarer and Aristo. In the U.S. we are most familiar with the worm and spur gear Type-1 version (the original Torsen design) because U.S. Supras didn't get the later helical Type-2 version until the last couple of model years of USDM (the basic design of which some new Toyota and Lexus performance vehicles still use today in other size diff casings). Japan and the rest of the world which got those three cars with our common 200mm diff got to see much more of the later T-2 Torsen as a factory standard LSD or optional LSD.

The 220mm diff for all 6-speed cars also got a T-2 Torsen eventually to the best of my knowledge but again I think most are familiar with the T-1 style that came in both the 200mm and 220mm diffs.

I am not sure what the ultimate limits of the T-2 are but I do know that the T-1 tends to not be recommended above 500whp due to how unpredictable it can become at that power level and higher (the infamous, scary "walk left" tail out situation in the right circumstances). Also those worm and spur gears indeed have ultimate limits that are probably reached if they are stressed over and over enough over time at a power level way beyond what they were designed to handle originally.

The T-2 I have heard is a stronger diff and for all I know maybe it is not as susceptible to walking left suddenly with extremely high horsepower-- of that I am not sure as I have yet to drive on a T-2 myself (other than in a Scion FR-S which has one stock but that's a completely different car with far less power).

...

I have had a T-1 from a 1994 Supra TT Auto installed in my SC300 for a decade now. I first had it custom installed with a 4.27 final drive ratio while I was still on my NA engine and now I've got it rebuilt back to the original 3.76 final drive ratio now that I've got a GTE swap.

In both driveline configurations I really like it in my 99% street driven car. At stock boost I am not coming anywhere close to over-stressing it beyond what it can handle. I have no traction control and good street tires and I'm very happy and confident with it. Sure, I really wish it were a T-2 but this one is really fine.

However that "step left" scenario that was mentioned above?

I've experienced that before on this Torsen T-1 on a very few rare occasions. The first couple such occasions were while I was on the 100% stock original NA engine. I was running not so good for rain BFGoodrich KDW2's at the time, and downshifted into 2nd at low speed while rounding a corner and applying some normal throttle (not full throttle). The Torsen sharply yanked left and did require immediate countersteer and saving. Yes, as mentioned above it was sudden, without warning and frightening to say the least. I changed to better tires that were rated better for rain traction after that.

I had it happen another time under similar circumstances and several years later once I had swapped to the GTE engine and adjusted the final drive ratio it happened again on a low speed sharp turn with some moderate throttle application while entering the turn.

In each of these instances it had just rained and I was taking care not to take unnecessary risks but some small nuance caught me off guard and the Torsen did a low speed version of the sudden "step left" on me. By now I have learned what to look out for and don't allow it to happen but it is a quirk of that limited slip differential.

I have not experienced a Torsen stepping left on me at 500whp++ at 70mph but I know I would not ever want to.

But still, for this car with an extremely mild 300-350whp or so I feel it is still an excellent and easy to live with LSD in a frequently driven non-competition road car. In that sense I completely agree with you, olav.

....

For seriously high horsepower on the other hand I have to agree with others in that I do not feel the Torsen is suited. TRD 2-way, OS Giken 2-Way or 1.5-Way or others are better, I think. The OS Gikens are some of the best and I have considered their 1.5-Way for the 200mm diff casing but any of them are going to be more predictable if your Supra or other JZ car are putting out more than (or MUCH more than) double the stock power.

A friend of mine has several 800-900whp+ JZ cars and a couple well over 1000whp and to the best of my knowledge he is running TRD 2-way or other aftermarket LSDs in his cars to safely and predictably get the power down.

....

The reason the Torsen T-1, T-2 and OS Giken 1.5-Way appeal to me (especially the OS 1.5) is that they seem to be the most ideal LSDs for road racing depending on your state of tune.

And of course to a point I think both Torsens are still the best choices for a regular use road JZ car because they're the lowest maintenance and easiest to live with. But probably not if your car is highly tuned and is going to put out more power than one of those can handle predictably and thus safely.

....

Also to the poster who asked which type of LSD came in the Supra MKIV NA's, I have always understood these to be the same Torsen LSDs we have been talking about from the TT Auto and Aristo and Soarer JZZ30. T-1's for the early years and (I think) T-2's by 1997 and 1998 for NA's. They were supposed to have been an exceptionally rare factory NA option for 1993.5-1996 and standard equipment on NA's (weirdly) from 1997-1998. But all of them were Torsens, not clutch type LSDs. NA Torsens are all 4.27 for 93-96 and 4.08 for 97-98.
 
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#29 · (Edited)
The reason the Torsen T-1, T-2 and OS Giken 1.5-Way appeal to me (especially the OS 1.5) is that they seem to be the most ideal LSDs for road racing depending on your state of tune.

And of course to a point I think both Torsens are still the best choices for a regular use road JZ car because they're the lowest maintenance and easiest to live with.
Yes. You are grip racing, so ideal scenario is that you have wide sticky tires that would create enough resistance to the gearset that it would lock it up before the drivetrain. You experience the step out when you lose your tires, as in the wet. That is where the clutch type works, because it is loose until there is a difference in the axle RPMs and it tightens up like a virgin.. a welded diff.
This is what Olav is talking about, when the car is turning the LSD will chirp if it is a clutch type and too tight. Loosen it up, either with an additive, or if the plates are glazed run it in reverse turning for a while to scuff them up again, and it will stop snapping into the locked position.
 
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#33 · (Edited)
On a more serious note, could oil quality play a role in the different perceptions of how the torsen operates in high hp cars? I had the impression that the torsen diff is not very picky on oil, and i assume the US and EU got the same oil specified for these differentials, so i find that somewhat unlikely. Since you mentioned this usually happens in cold weather my mind immediately think oil (cold diff oil)
 
#43 ·
Here's a link to a video showing me driving my 1995 Supra SE. Note the comments about how "I am a stupid little man", LOL. Supra Driving and Videography

I was trying to sell the car but got so many interested that I thought my price was too low. So I didn't sell it.

A Torsen differential provides torque proportionally to the wheel that has the most traction. If both wheels are spinning and have the same traction, have the available torque goes to each wheel. However, there is a limit if no wheel has sufficient traction. This could explain why a Torsen equipped car might "yaw" left or right if the wheels have different amounts of traction and their is a lot of torque available.
 
#44 ·
Haha, yeah, just ignore such comments, they don't know what they are talking about anyway most of the time.

That is true, if one whel has 0 traction, you could end up with the "yaw left or right" scenario. The question you should be asking yourself is, why does one wheel have 0 traction and not the other? I find blaming the differential for this is somewhat ignorant, you should really be looking at why you are having such high traction difference between the wheels.

As i said earlier, we have a bunch of supra drift/racecars over here who run these diffs on track with no issue. Norway is the supra racecar mecca, we probably have the highest ammount of racecar supra's in the world, also pretty sure we have the highest ammount of supra's in general if you take population into account.

Here's a fun video giving you an idea of how many supra racecars we usually have at our events (video includes supra racecar counter 😅)

Norbe goes Gatebil
 
#46 · (Edited)
According to Jeff Lange all the 220mm big diff 6-speed cars all got Torsen T-1's. It was only the 200mm small diffs that eventually got Torsen T-2's (97-98) for the U.S. models.


Chatters, your theory is along the lines of what I have guessed is happening with the "stepping left" tendency of the T-1 design. And of course especially with any LSD equipped car it's an extremely good idea to learn how to counter-steer if that's not already in the driver's skill set.

Wet roads reduce traction potential for any tire compound and this will just make it easier to induce this tendency under the right conditions. With a non-TRAC car (SC) my solution was to quickly learn how to adjust my driving style to the conditions and get better at counter-steering if required. With a GTE swap I still have no TRAC system and so the same considerations apply.

As mentioned it even happened to me with an NA engine in the wet but that was with a tire compound that was really, really not known for being good to use in the rain on any car (great track tire though, the KDW2's).

I'm one of those rare few at the stock power level for a 2JZ-GTE and as such with the T-1, 275mm rear tires in a good compound and no TRAC I am totally fine with the old Torsen and its inherent quirks and limitations. I even drive the car in the rain (in a reasonable way and not flat out obviously) and it's fine and safe.

I know there have been many people who have pushed their pricey used MKIV factory Torsen LSDs well past the "recommended" 500whp beyond which many suggest going with a clutch type LSD. I can only guess that it comes down to driving style, how the power is put down and just how many total miles and cycles of stress on the gears are on the Torsen as to whether one survives at really high power while another doesn't at significantly lower power.

As for the quirk of stepping left with the T-1, this video is a pretty good example I'm sure most of us can identify with. It happens a couple of times in this video. Only the first time does the driver fail to save the skid (skip to 44 seconds in).

Of course he wasn't on track deliberately trying to drift in this case and the more I've looked at the clip over time I feel his counter-steering technique wasn't quite as fast as it could have been. No idea about his level of experience with the car but I'm not posting it to judge that one way or the other-- rather I'm leaving it here just to illustrate what many have observed firsthand in some conditions (usually in the wet) with the stock Torsen T-1 LSDs depending on driver input.



I can only say that if I were going to up my car to 600whp-700whp or higher I would look into an OS Giken 1.5-way or one of the many 2-way clutch type LSD options. Those all are proven to reliably hold extreme power into four digits with predictable lock which is what you want at a certain level of power.

Or maybe I'd attempt to track down a 200mm factory Torsen T-2 but I suspect that even that one has some ultimate limitations. I also still feel that the selection of tire plays a big part in this as well since that is the final component between the car and the road which determines the degree of traction you can hope to maintain in a given situation. Further, for drag racing or dedicated drag setups the Torsen, especially the T-1, is not suited for or destined to live long under those kinds of severe stresses.

For the very mild "stock"-like setup I currently have I am fine with the Torsen T-1, quirks and all. I just treat it with respect in the wet.

As for all enthusiast drivers in the U.S. being afraid of turns, that's pretty funny and couldn't be farther from the truth.
 
#50 ·
Wet roads reduce traction potential for any tire compound and this will just make it easier to induce this tendency under the right conditions.

I'm one of those rare few at the stock power level for a 2JZ-GTE and as such with the T-1, 275mm rear tires in a good compound and no TRAC I am totally fine with the old Torsen and its inherent quirks and limitations. I even drive the car in the rain (in a reasonable way and not flat out obviously) and it's fine and safe.
Unless the car is still being developed, having a "built engine" while maintaining "Stock Twins" seems illogical to me. The car's very "peaky" throttle response seems inconsistent with the stock twin turbo setup, as well.
It also appears that "Falken Azenis" tires are not good in wet track conditions.
Video description includes the following information:

My Supra has 373whp (~435hp at the crank), the list of mods includes:
-Arias Pistons
-Jun Rods
-HKS 272 Cams
-Unorthodox Racing Cam Gears
-Port and Polished Head
-Greddy Electronic Boost controller (Lo boost 15psi, Hi boost 18psi)
-Stock suspension
-Falken Azenis tires
-Stock Twins
-ARP Hardware
 
#47 ·
Weird video. Like the driver is a new owner but also an instructor and the passenger is there for track familiarization.
Peaky turbo RWD on a wet track is always going to get tail happy.
Different types of gear LSDs. I never had any issues with Quaife in FWD config, but it's easier to control the ass end when you're holding onto the driving wheels.
 
#48 ·
Like the driver is a new owner but also an instructor and the passenger is there for track familiarization.
If this is a typical track day, the passenger is the instructor and the conversation indicates that. For example, the driver asks the instructor whether he should wait until the other cars pass. The instructor is trying to be polite and supportive.

The driver does not seem to be new to the car, as he states that the tires have a flat spot from being left too long.
 
#52 ·
Sorry, the Torsen diff that comes stock in the 220mm rear is pure trash for those making anything over 500whp. T R A S H unless you like the car to spin left or right. Spinning isn't winning. Installing a rear LSD like the TRD is one of the best mods you can do.

Steve
 
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