[wizard_of_oz]

My brakes faded going into turn 7 of Blackhawk farms on Friday and I had a close encounter with the runoff area. Fortunately, nothing significant is broken, and I think I can get on track again this Thursday with safety wire, duct tape, lots of new fasteners, and of course new brakes.

I'll be revisiting my pedal setup because my throttle pedal is either too high or my brake pedal is too low (depending on your perspective). This caused me to not brake hard enough when heel-toeing.

In the meantime, I need to move up to better brake pads than stock. What are your opinions of

• Hawk blues
• Carbotech panthers
• Porterfield R4

Fast availability is a factor here, I need them by Tuesday.

I'm currently using fresh Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid (dry boil point 502F). Do I need to move up to something better?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Andi]

Hawk Blue front brake pads are the ticket, absolutely no question. Highly recommended. Leave the stockers in back.

I also run Motul RBF600, which as a dry boiling point of 592... $90 per case of 12 from Adam Hume at Stillen. I buy a case every few months..

Andi

 

[Eric]

Originally posted by Oolan Zimmer:
<STRONG>My brakes faded going into turn 7 of Blackhawk farms on Friday and I had a close encounter with the runoff area. Fortunately, nothing significant is broken, and I think I can get on track again this Thursday with safety wire, duct tape, lots of new fasteners, and of course new brakes.

I'll be revisiting my pedal setup because my throttle pedal is either too high or my brake pedal is too low (depending on your perspective). This caused me to not brake hard enough when heel-toeing.

In the meantime, I need to move up to better brake pads than stock. What are your opinions of

• Hawk blues
• Carbotech panthers
• Porterfield R4

Fast availability is a factor here, I need them by Tuesday.

</STRONG>

Stay away from the Panthers, they are not a real race compound. They will fade with hard use, and fade fast when they go. Of the other two pads, the Porterfields (I'd recommend the R4E instead of the R4) are much easier on rotors, but aren't as fade resistant as the Hawks. I have to run several back to back very hard laps to get fade with the Porterfields, and they still work, they just need more pedal pressure, which makes it hard to heel and toe. I'm thinking about trying some Blues or HT10s next time. The Blues are cheaper than the Porterfields, which will help offset the extra rotor wear to some degree.

Also, regardless of what pad you use, run some ducts to the center of the rotor. The dust shield has a hole that is perfect for wedging some 3" tubing into, and it points directly at the center of the rotor, where you want the airflow to go.

<STRONG>I'm currently using fresh Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid (dry boil point 502F). Do I need to move up to something better?

</STRONG>

I have yet to experience fluid fade with the Valvoline, unlike a lot of my friends who use Motul despite the difference in advertised boiling points. I recommend it highly.

 

[wizard_of_oz]

Andi,

Where did you get your brake pads?

Thanks!

 

[Grant]

Andi, you mentioned you use the Blues on the street. Is there any danger with their lack of cold stopping power? I don't want to have to keep a seperate set of rotors and pads if possible.

 

[Andi]

Originally posted by Oolan Zimmer:
<STRONG>Andi,

Where did you get your brake pads?

Thanks!</STRONG>

I got 'em from Rally Distributing upon Jeff Hood's recommendation.

Andi

 

[Andi]

Originally posted by Grant:
<STRONG>Andi, you mentioned you use the Blues on the street. Is there any danger with their lack of cold stopping power? I don't want to have to keep a seperate set of rotors and pads if possible.</STRONG>

The Hawk Blues have better cold stopping power than stock. Only downsides are that they're hard on rotors, they dust, and they squeal.

Andi

 

[fleadh]

Originally posted by Oolan Zimmer:
<STRONG>
I'll be revisiting my pedal setup because my throttle pedal is either too high or my brake pedal is too low (depending on your perspective). This caused me to not brake hard enough when heel-toeing.
</STRONG>

Hmm.. do you have your heel on the gas and your toes on the brake? If so, try it the other way... heal on the brake pedal, and roll your foot onto the accelerator.

I really dislike the surface of the factory brake pedal.. its to slick.. gunna have to figure out a way to fix that.

-mike

 

[Andi]

Oh, sorry I forgot to reply about the heel & toe-ing.

I had originally installed Razo magnesium pedal covers over the brake and accelerator pedals:

I've since removed the pedal cover from the accelerator pedal. That helped a LOT. Now I can heel & toe better while braking, since I've effectively raised the brake pedal w/ respect to the accelerator pedal while braking.

I don't have a revised pic, but just pretend the accelerator pedal doesn't have taht big razo pedal cover on it..

Oh, heel & toeing is a misnomer. Nobody uses their heel and their toe. I use the ball of my foot on the brakes and rotate the right side of my foot onto the gas to blip it for a rev match during braking.

Andi

 

[wizard_of_oz]

You're right, heel-toe is a misnomer. I also use the left side of my foot for the brake and the right side for accelerator. I have pad covers on to make the pedals easier to find.

Unfortunately, it makes the accelerator too easy to hit. The "easy street braking" level of the brake pedal is about even with the accelerator; the "hard braking" level of the brake pedal is just enough below the level of the accelerator that I ease off the brakes just slightly to squeeze the accelerator. This along with novice paranoia causes longer stopping distances, and more heat in the brakes.

 

[Andi]

Oolan,


take the cover off the accelerator pedal...

Andi

 

[Eric]

Originally posted by Grant:
<STRONG>Andi, you mentioned you use the Blues on the street. Is there any danger with their lack of cold stopping power? I don't want to have to keep a seperate set of rotors and pads if possible.</STRONG>

You don't want to use Blues as a street pad. They wear the rotors VERY fast, and the large amounts of dust they leave is extremely hard to get off if you don't do it very soon after it appears. Some of the residue they leave is rotor dust since they eat the rotors, which will turn a lovely shade of rust if it gets wet. Changing pads is a 5 minute job once you've done it a few times. Just do it when you put fresh fluid in before the event. Street pads belong on the street and race pads belong on the racetrack.

 

[Andi]

Originally posted by Eric:
<STRONG>You don't want to use Blues as a street pad. They wear the rotors VERY fast, and the large amounts of dust they leave is extremely hard to get off if you don't do it very soon after it appears. Some of the residue they leave is rotor dust since they eat the rotors, which will turn a lovely shade of rust if it gets wet. Changing pads is a 5 minute job once you've done it a few times. Just do it when you put fresh fluid in before the event. Street pads belong on the street and race pads belong on the racetrack.</STRONG>

And I would agree with Eric if I wasn't so damn lazy. Plus I work from the house and only drive the Supra about twice a week anyway...

Andi

 

[Grant]

Originally posted by Eric:
<STRONG>You don't want to use Blues as a street pad. They wear the rotors VERY fast, and the large amounts of dust they leave is extremely hard to get off if you don't do it very soon after it appears. Some of the residue they leave is rotor dust since they eat the rotors, which will turn a lovely shade of rust if it gets wet. Changing pads is a 5 minute job once you've done it a few times. Just do it when you put fresh fluid in before the event. Street pads belong on the street and race pads belong on the racetrack.</STRONG>

I thought that might be the case... But wouldn't you need to change rotors as well? I know most people resurface their rotors when they put new pads on, of course our rotors are just trash after 1 set of pads anyways, I hope my cryo treated ones last longer...

 

[wizard_of_oz]

Originally posted by Andi:
<STRONG>Oolan,

take the cover off the accelerator pedal...

Andi</STRONG>

The first thing I'm trying is putting the (stock or similar) rubber cover on the brake pedal and reinstalling the metal cover. That might get me the amount of clearance I need. I get most of the distance between the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal with the accelerator pedal cover.

If I still rev the engine before the brake bottoms out then I'll remove the accelerator pedal cover.

If only all the problems were this easy to fix...

 

[Andi]

You took the stock rubber cover off before installing the aftermarket pedals? Hehehe.. I didn't.

I highly suggest you do both: install the rubber cover back on the brake below the aftermarket cover, and also take off the aftermarket accelerator pedal cover. When you're road racing you're pushing quite hard on the brake pedal and you need that extra thickness in the brake pedal so you can blip the throttle under braking.

Andi

 

[Eric]

Originally posted by Grant:
<STRONG>I thought that might be the case... But wouldn't you need to change rotors as well? I know most people resurface their rotors when they put new pads on, of course our rotors are just trash after 1 set of pads anyways, I hope my cryo treated ones last longer...</STRONG>

I've heard people claim you should have different rotors for different pads, but I don't, and it seems to work fine. The only downside I've found is that the Porterfields leave a residue on the rotor that it takes a few good stops to wear off. Until it wears off, you can't brake quite as hard as normal with the street pads. I usually make it a point to do a couple of hard stops on the way home from the track so the brakes are there if needed.

 

[wizard_of_oz]

Originally posted by Andi:
<STRONG>Hawk Blue front brake pads are the ticket, absolutely no question. Highly recommended. Leave the stockers in back.

I also run Motul RBF600, which as a dry boiling point of 592... $90 per case of 12 from Adam Hume at Stillen. I buy a case every few months..

Andi</STRONG>

Will going to a higher friction pad in front and leaving the stockers in back screw up brake proportioning? I've also heard (from Jay Marks) that blues in front and blacks in the rear work well.

I'm going to flush with fresh Valvoline for this coming event because I know I can get it easily. I'll call around to see who has Hawk blues for our cars in stock.

 

[wizard_of_oz]

Originally posted by Eric:
<STRONG>Stay away from the Panthers, they are not a real race compound. They will fade with hard use, and fade fast when they go. </STRONG>

Thanks for the heads-up. That's just what I don't need on the track. I'll be going with Hawk Blues.

<STRONG>
Also, regardless of what pad you use, run some ducts to the center of the rotor. The dust shield has a hole that is perfect for wedging some 3" tubing into, and it points directly at the center of the rotor, where you want the airflow to go.
</STRONG>

Is the issue volume of air or placement of air? IE, if I route from the existing duct to the back of the rotor, will that help, or do I need to duct from underneath the car?

Thanks!

 

[Andi]

Originally posted by Oolan Zimmer:
<STRONG>Will going to a higher friction pad in front and leaving the stockers in back screw up brake proportioning? I've also heard (from Jay Marks) that blues in front and blacks in the rear work well.

</STRONG>

No. Rememeber that when you have more tire (like your Hoosiers), you have more braking, meaning more weight transfer to the front wheels when braking. Which means just to keep the same balance of braking at the limits of all 4 tires, you need to add more braking (better pads) to the front.

Also, you said you're experiencing an oversteer problem. This will help reduce oversteer, at least during trailbraking..

Andi

<STRONG>

I'm going to flush with fresh Valvoline for this coming event because I know I can get it easily. I'll call around to see who has Hawk blues for our cars in stock.</STRONG>

[ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: Andi ]