Supra Forums banner
1 - 20 of 50 Posts

·
My boss set me on fire!?!
Joined
·
561 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well a few weeks back I found myself trying to take the next step on my car. I was going to install a fuel system, injectors, and remove the maf. I had maxed out the stock fuel system and I wanted more power. I have owned an AEM EMS since the January but was reluctant to install it because of the issues with Automatic tranny shifting. The AEM seemed the obvious choice to fuel my car as it is often regarded as one of the better ways to tune your supra. I had one so price was not an issue. I work part time at a AEM factory trained tuning center and have been there watching Supras make anywhere from upper 500whp to almost 1000 through an EMS. However they all had one thing in common, no Toyota autos.

Now I know many of yall think it is nuts to try to make a lot of power on the stock trans. For what I do I will deal with the hassle of swapping a trans out every now and then over the turbo 400 option. I currently have a few spare trans, and plan on getting a built one once I figure who I will trust to build it.

I was confident of the AEM’s ability to make power, and be able to be tuned safe. However the tranny issue as well as simple things such as cold start, and idle issues further complicated my decision. I know that you can just hook up your laptop and tune this stuff out, but I did not want to deal with it. I did not want to always have to have a laptop in my car. So I was left with a few options.

Through research and some of your posts I decided to give the Map ecu a chance. I figured I could sell it used, and loose a few bucks if I did not like it. I called up PHR and got it coming. Jarrett answered a bunch of questions for me before the order, and was very helpful. My biggest worry about it was issue with timing. I am not usually a fan of piggyback ecu's for this reason. If you don’t understand check out this post from BLKMGK. Good write up on stuff I have been saying for a long time BLKMGK Link

Jarrett told me this would not be an issue because of the use of the stock map sensor. I was worried about the BCC then. However thought back onto several 600-700hp Supra's I have worked on with little more than a VPC AFC combo and realized they worked well, no knock, and no blown up motors. So I decided to keep this in the back of my mind, but not forget it completely.

Here is the actual write up on the ECU, I wanted to give a bit of a Background on my decision on why to try it... It was installed into the following setup.

95 SC300
JDM 2JZGTE converted to US SPEC except for EGR
Turbo Auto trans
USDM Auto ECU and Wiring Harness
Twin Supra Pumps
-8 Feed
Modified stock fuel rail with Twin -6 feed
850cc Injectors
BCC
AFC2 (not hooked up to maf wire anymore, just using for RPM Peak and hold, bat voltage, and more. And I simply did not feel like removing it)
PT61 Single turbo on custom Manifold and such
3.5"dp to twin 3" straight through exhaust.

Picts here of setup before Map ECU

The Car dynoed 517 before ECU at 22-23 psi on stock fuel system. I ran low boost till past peak torque and hit high boost after to get this number. I did not have enough fuel for peak torque. I know it was a bit dangerous, but I wanted to break 500 on stock fuel system. The car was making about 420 on pump gas at 17 to 18 psi.


The ECU was very straightforward to install. In fact I wired it into my AFC sub harness I had made when the motor and harness were installed. It took about 45 min to solder in, heat shrink, tape up, and "T" into the vacuum line going into the Profec B box in the console. I personally see no reason for the Map ecu harness, but my car was built from the ground up by me so it was a very simple install compared to other things done to the car.

I checked the ECU for connectivity and no problem. I loaded the 850cc map, and checked TPS among other things before attempting to start. Cranked it up and it started right away. It was lean at idle and rich when revving. But it idled fine, and had no issues. We went to street tune it on pump gas. My AEM wideband hooked to the MAP ecu and working great. Drivability as well as WOT was very easy to tune. However we kept on having to add fuel and add fuel. We were getting aggravated with it and could not figure what was up. It turns out my BS fuel filter I got for my system clogged up. NEVER GET THE FILTERS WITH THE WAFFER STYLE ELEMENT. This is the 3rd time we have had them clog up. First time we though it was trash, 2nd time thought it was because of the 10 micron, and this time I thought I would be fine with the 40 micron. Either ways it is a POS and I got an Aeromotive one from summit AEI-12301 for 80$ Worked great and no issues since. But I digress...

Now back to the write up. Needless to say the tune was screwed. At 14psi we had the map maxed out for 850cc injectors and it was still too lean. Once the new filter was in the car would start and drive, but once into boost it would run so rich that it would fall on its face. I loaded the 850cc map back into the computer and started again. It took about 20 miles on the interstate to tune part throttle and full throttle. VERY EASY. Worked great. I put it on the dyno and immediately saw power gains. Was able to blow past that 517 hp to 560hp with 3 more lb of boost. The best part was that I was able to run the boost all the way through the rev range. The car went from making 430 tq to 530. I was able to actually safely use the power on the street. Pump gas tune went from 420 at 17 to 18psi to 450 at 17psi. That AFM is well worth getting rid of, as most people already know. I might throw it on the dyno and stick it in the tube just to see a real world back-to-back difference. When I dynoed with the AFM and stock ECU it was between 68 and 75* in the shop. With the Map ECU it was between 95 and 100* in the shop. All numbers were uncorrected to uncorrected.


The unit itself works great. Good power, easy to install and tune, and great price. Now there are a few things I do not like on the setup. All of them are centered around the software.

1. You cannot change more than one cell at a time.
2. Software would lock up from time to time.
3. Logging is effective but cumbersome to use. Actually a big PITA. It is better than nothing and gets the job done, but could be a lot lot better.
4. Map is backwards from what I am used to, Low pressure up top, high pressure down low, just takes some getting used to.
5. Would like to be able to pull up windows of Boost, rpm, and O2 to overlay on Table or graph. Make tuning on fly a bit easier.
6. If you log while another log is open they will overlay. Could be useful if Logging software was better, otherwise makes it even tougher to use.
7. Can not change RPM or boost points, however they really give you enough to not need to unless you were running a lot of RPM which would only happen with a modified stock ecu.


That is about it on the software.

So my final thoughts.

1. AEM is sold, simple decision after using MAP ECU
2. Great Bang for Buck.
3. Does the job, very well, albeit a bit annoying to use at times (software)
4. Makes great power by removing the MAF
5. No apparent timing issues so far.***
6. Drivability is AWESOME.
7. Starts every time
8. Idles like stock
9. Transmission shifts the same
10. I would recommend for less than 700whp (above 700 I think timing changes are needed)


Could I have made more power with the AEM? Maybe. However I believe the supra maps are more aggressive than most tuners run on AEM's, but the Supra has a Great anti knock program in its ECU. Would I still be messing with the AEM every day, most probably. Would my tranny of fallen out of the car yet, maybe.

Now I would like to have the ability to raise the rev limit, and change the shift points. Two things I know a simple piggyback cannot do, but really I am fine without that.

It is truly too bad that PHR is no longer going to sell these units. I am sure we will be able to find them. I understand why Jarrett chose to do so, Just wish it had not had to happen.

Thanks for reading my post. If it appears jumbled I did it at work and went back and forth on it when I had time.

Ohh yea three Supra owners have seen this on my car and how well it worked and have ordered one for their cars already.


*** Before the car was safe at 17 to 18 lb. At 19 to 20 I would get knock. Now at 17 making more power and computer thinking it is getting more air than it is, no knock. If I was 1psi away from knock before, I believe a few degree increase in timing from computer would also induce knock. Just my thoughts.


Danny
 

·
In The Sonoran Desert
Joined
·
481 Posts
great writeup. Glad to hear you had great results with it.
 

·
2JZ yes shit
Joined
·
1,012 Posts
I completely agree with everything said about the map-ecu. Tuning is easy and the car drives like stock.

I have compaints about the software too, and being a programmer, I wrote this letter for submission on PMR's site:

To Whom It May Concern:



My name is Adam Xxxx and I am a friend of Ben from Powerhouse Racing. I've been using your MAP-ECU 2.3 version for a few months now and I really like the changes that have been made since 2.2. I am sending this email in hopes that I may be allowed to develop further upon the software. I'm a very experienced VB6 programmer, but I also program in .NET (VB, C++, C#), Java (J2SE 1.4.2, J2EE 1.4), PHP, etc.



MAP-ECU has a lot of potential and many users would agree that the current software does need quite a bit of work. I would like to make some further improvements to the software; including interface changes, but especially changes to the data-logging. I would like to be able to implement the ability to overlap various logs, allow better navigation between data points, and create a better overall display. From my experience, I have needed the ability to view TPS at the bottom data textboxes when selecting a data point in order to understand whether I was at WOT or cruising to interpret why the A/F is where it is. I could also create an auto-tune feature similar to the one found on Autronic EMS that would prompt the user to setup desired A/Fs for a range of RPM vs. load and allow the software to prompt the user to drive at a certain RPM and TPS while on the dyno to allow the software to learn and adjust the A/Fs on the map accordingly.

I'm not looking for any profit whatsoever, just purely to improve on something I am very impressed with. I would have no problem with signing any non-disclosure agreement or anything stating that I will not distribute the source code. I just look forward to using my skills as a programmer to improve on this great product because I truly believe with better software there would be much more adoption of the MAP-ECU with the American market, allowing the MAP-ECU to be recognized by many as the best piggyback available.



I hope we can make something possible and look forward to hearing from you.



Thank you,

Adam Xxxx


Unfortunately, the submission page on their website did NOT work, so this letter was a waste. If anyone from PHR reads this, can you please send this to PMR or PM me with their contact info?
 

·
Boost4fun
Joined
·
1,848 Posts
Hey, great thoughts and ideas!
I would love to have kinda "autolearn to AFRs" vs. rpm/boost integrated in the soft. That would be a great improvement.
Hopefully they allow you to do something in here and we can soon have the version 2.4 available:)
Gerd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,581 Posts
Great stuff that you guys are contributing, thanks ...especially for us who have the MAP ECU, me included. I'll be needing to tune mine within the next few weeks and I had a couple minor jitters about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
980 Posts
That thread that you referenced was complete BS.

SupraSol's 550cc stock twin car and my T78 720cc car logged the same timing with different injectors at right around the same boost. The data is there but for some reason people seem to conveniently overlook it? The thread was started based on theory not actual data. The data spoke for itself.
 

·
My boss set me on fire!?!
Joined
·
561 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I forgot to add the point about the TPS in the cells on the bottom. That would help a bunch.. I also like the idea for the auto tune, however I know that takes a lot more work than to do a few of the changes I have noted.


Stokersix.... I can say this about that thread. Other MAF equiped cars in the industry, (Nissan, Other Toyotas, Mazda, and Mitsu) all 100% run into this problem. However none of them have a MAF **AND** a Map sensor. This very well could be what seperates the Supra ECU from them. However if this is the case than the BCC can screw with that even more when it clamps the voltage to where the ECU does not know how much boost it is actually getting once it is cranked up.

That being said... I have yet to see any issues. I am running about 55% more injector than before, yet No issues. I have personally seen Mitsu and Nissans crank the timing through the roof with piggy back computers. This is where the bulk of my worry came from before the install of the ecu. However I see no issues, and I will be keeping the MAP ECU as stated before.

Danny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
980 Posts
I wouldn't think the BCC would mess with AFR or timing. It just clamps the turbo pressure sensor signal and probably doesn't factor into the load equation.

Wide variances of stock ECU programming can be seen from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from model to model. To make a generalized staement like that (without data) is silly if you ask me.

The reason for the other cars timing going through the roof cold just be because they added a high octance fuel, which in that case more timing may be ok.
 

·
My boss set me on fire!?!
Joined
·
561 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The simple reason their timing goes through the roof has nothing to do with the knock sensor, but with the fact that the ECU thinks it is getting less air than it is, so it is throwing less pulsewidth to the injectors and more timing.

THe deal with the BCC was simply if the Supra uses it as a 2nd input for airflow and used it for its timing map. If that is the case than a BCC can make the computer tink it has 16psi of boost when you are running 23psi.

In that case you will be seeing what the ecu wants for 16 psi for timing. However we know that the Supra ECU is very good at controlling knock, and this could also be the reason we have not had issues. (as BLKMGK stated)


I am not saying all of this is 100% right. However I have personally seen it happen with the other brands that I mentioned, and I have YET to see it with my Supra ECU.

Danny
 

·
2JZ yes shit
Joined
·
1,012 Posts
Got an email back from PMR, let's keep our fingers crossed:

Hi Adam,

Thanks for your email and being proactive. We have had a few offers of help like this but we have been reluctant to let our source code out.

V2.3 is actually a year old now and our software has moved on considerably, especially in the area of data-logging. Your auto-tune feature sounds interesting as that is always a difficult area. One of the issues with tuning to A/F ratio's is that it does not always mean the car runs right and the tuners 'magic touch' has to kick in to sort out the bumps.

We will keep it in mind and get back to you if we wish to pursue the option.

Regards,
Peter
 

·
SuperMember
Joined
·
3,154 Posts
kind off topic but wich one will be more reliable as to "set it and forget it" kind of thing? I hear alot of complaints about having to tune minor adjustments with the AEM often .. but I have not heard about MAP ECU

I will be looking at buying one or the other to support my 800 WHP goal .. but don't want to be carrying a laptop in the car everytime :ugh2:
 

·
My boss set me on fire!?!
Joined
·
561 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
supratter said:
kind off topic but wich one will be more reliable as to "set it and forget it" kind of thing? I hear alot of complaints about having to tune minor adjustments with the AEM often .. but I have not heard about MAP ECU

I will be looking at buying one or the other to support my 800 WHP goal .. but don't want to be carrying a laptop in the car everytime :ugh2:

MAP ECU All the way. It is just taking care of one thing. The stock ECU takes care of everything else. Most of the time AEM issues are not centered around WOT, but under other minor things (Cold start, Idle, low throttle.)

Danny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
980 Posts
godelfer said:
However I have personally seen it happen with the other brands that I mentioned, and I have YET to see it with my Supra ECU.
This was my point. According to the only data in the thread, the stock ECU did not behave as stated in the thread title. The basic pretense of the thread doesn't seem to apply to the stock ECU and piggybacks.

And who knows, maybe the turbo pressure sensor does play into the load equation.
 

·
Boost Junkie
Joined
·
12,743 Posts
With the MAP ECU there is no need for those different maps. One map does it all because you tune for each pressure point-unlike an afc. You'll have one map and if you plan on running high boost all you have do is put the good gas in. You are not adjusting timing like most standalones allow. Just make sure you have enough octane for the amount of boost you plan to run and you are in there like swimwear.

Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Why was the MAP ECU discontinued? Something better in the works? or are they just tired of dealing with inexperienced people who can't tune?

I have one my my Stealth and it works great except for Lean tip in issues. I think I have my throttle position sensor mis-calibrated. I had minor problem with lean tip in with stock fuel system and MAF and the MAP ECU seems to make the stock ECU much more sensitive to whatever is causing my lean tip in issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
560 Posts
Evill Supra said:
With the MAP ECU there is no need for those different maps. One map does it all because you tune for each pressure point-unlike an afc. You'll have one map and if you plan on running high boost all you have do is put the good gas in. You are not adjusting timing like most standalones allow. Just make sure you have enough octane for the amount of boost you plan to run and you are in there like swimwear.

Steve

This is will be my setup:

T-78
850 injectors
fuel system

At low boost (16 lbs) my car will put down ~475RHP

So what your saying is at all i need to do is turn my boost up to 24lbs and put some 110 octane in there and let the Map-EcU do the rest? That seems a little too easy. There must be something else involved
 
1 - 20 of 50 Posts
Top