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boost'en down 101
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Discussion Starter #1
hey guys so i'm posting this here because i feel like the most knowledgeable people will see it. here's a quick run down of the story so i've had my supra for a long time now. first tried running 7m's which was a nightmare did a built one only to have the head lift from the soft 7m head problem. after that fun i decide to do a 2jzge na-t swap since my car was nice and all the electronics/wiring harness were in great shape figured it'd be easiest. got that running on a lex afm/safc2 made decent power on a hx35 then went to a borg 63mm where i got the car to trap 131mph. beat on that setup for years lasted around 5 years then it finally let go making a pass on race gas. the funny thing with that i was using my aem truboost as a boost controller/boost gauge. that day i wanted to eek out some more mph so i kept adding more duty cycle but my boost wasn't going up. low and behold the truboost only reads to 30psi so who knows how much boost it was running!? ha

after that i replaced the bottom end decided i'd give a standalone a shot since everyone kept telling me i'll make more power and it'll be more reliable. i wish that was the case. i went with a ecu master because i like how it catered toward supra's but the amount of trouble shooting i went through was insane. mainly with the plugnplay adapter took 3 before i got one that had the circuit board correct. then still some wires were pinned wrong!? finally got that sorted out made it to my friends dyno made decent numbers and took it too the track. funny thing is it was slower on the standalone granted it was on 28-30psi fasted trap was 129mph. logs were showing the iat's getting pretty high so added an aem meth kit. that helped drop the iat's but shortly after i took my car through the mountains to trinity lake (2.5hrs high load/heat) and it started smoking bad after that drive. compression test showed 100psi in 5 and 6. it used a gallon of meth on the drive too seemed excessive but i was boosting A LOT lol. so figured maybe i was spraying too much even though the largest nozzle fit the hp my car was making. maybe spraying it too early idk.

then let my car sit cause i was sick of working on it. after a bit decided to get a new bottom end and give it another go. didn't run the meth this time to try to eliminate a variable as to why it blew up. didn't drive it much only took it to an autocross then a little cruise at night was drifting around a round about for a bit then as i'm leaving i shift into 3rd and it makes a horrid noise. happened to be my built r154 finally let go of 3rd like most do after making decent torque for a while. car sat built up the spare r154 i had put that in took it on a test drive. i think this was the first time i took this bottom end out where it got higher load doing pulls in 3rd-4th. anyhow after about 30min it starts smoking bad again!? i did notice the lights on the dash blinking as if it was having a charging issue but the laptop reading said the voltage was fine. it was bouncing around though my safc2 was reading steady so i guess it was just the sensitivity of the ecu? compression test showed loss of compression again tons of blow by fun fun fun......

after thinking about it i decided to get the parts to do a built bottom end. tore down the motor to find the pistons not really damaged!? i assumed they'd be fried but only one had a piece missing from below the oil rings. so now i'm hesitant to go through with a built bottom end. realistically i don't want to make more than 750whp as i feel like that's the sweet spot for a mk3 to be reliable and capable to do a variety of motor sports. theoretically a stock 2jz bottom end should handle that fine. i almost want to try a stock bottom end to get this issue sorted out before i put a built one in. near tempted to just put my car back to how it was with the safc2 just call it quits with the standalone since it lasted so long! it sucks. i really like to drive/race my car and i've barely been able to these past years. what on earth would make a stock bottom end just loose compression without smoking a piston??
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Boost Junkie
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12,455 Posts
You need to give us more information-entire setup, fuel system, ignition, everything. Can you not get E85 where you live? Race fuel?

Steve
 

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boost'en down 101
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1,243 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
sadly no e85 i've always ran my car on 91 pump gas in the 18psi boost range then on sunoco 110 on around 30psi as far as fuel goes. mod list is pretty basic here's a list...

2jzge with tt hg/arp's
ffim i made
ecu master emu (the newer smaller box)
sxe64.5
tial mvr44 open dump
3" dp to blitz nurspec
precision 750cc's
walbro 450
stock ignition
treadstone 1000hp ic (recently added since i decided to not run meth on the latest bottom end)
2.5" ic piping
built r154
os giken twin

the crazy thing is it's blowing up on pump gas. i was thinking maybe it's getting too lean but won't that usually put a hole in a piston? do ffim cause too much air flow to the back cylinders? with my safc2 i always just tuned it off my aem wideband to around 11-11.5afr. i'd did 100's if not 1000's of pulls on pump gas running the same boost level never blowing up the motor. i don't have knock sensors working but i felt i have the timing fairly conservative. i recall the stock ecu running timing into the low 20's from my research. it's annoying i have everything to theoretically make the hp i want reliably but it hasn't been the reality aaaah!
 

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boost'en down 101
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1,243 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
i will. it's ridiculous how this last motor i barely drove it and it did the exact same thing. can anyone think of a symptom that will cause the rings to just go in a short amount of time? will ignition timing or a lean condition do that?? does my timing table look bad? my friend was saying maybe the ring gap was too tight but soooooo many people have stock bottom ends take a beating including me without opening up the ring gap so i don't think thats the issue. or could extreme heat cause that? i have a big aem dry flow air filter it never got run without a filter so i don't think dirt would cause that. i've had quads eat up water/dirt and they don't just let go that easy from my experience. i guess i'm just going to try another stock bottom end since i don't want to risk ruining a nice built bottom end. this is the last try though if i don't get to the bottom of this issue i'm going back to the piggyback.....
 

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You're running kinda lean for 91 octane pump gas. Unless you have logs there is no way of knowing for sure. Stock timing under hard boost is teens not 20's. With your compression ratio you shouldn't be running over 16psi either unless you have aftermarket cams. Seems like a lot of variables here. I'd start with making sure your injectors are good first and then fix your timing and A/F ratios. Also verify your wideband is accurate. Hoping you don't have to go through another motor again man, it sucks.
 

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boost'en down 101
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1,243 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
that sounds like a good plan. before this latest bottom end i had the injectors cleaned and flow tested by boost lab. they were slightly off but nothing that would cause an issue now they're perfectly balanced to 780cc. on the next motor i think i'll start by just running wastegate which is 15psi dropping timing to 12 degrees in boost and adding fuel to the fuel table. think i might even dump some 110 in there to have safety net while diagnosing the issue. also going to replace the alternator and make sure my charge light isn't blinking before i do any pulls. was looking on the ecu and it has a thing where you can have say 5 and 6 get 100% fuel then say 4 and 5 95% then 1 and 2 90%. is that something tuners do to help with more air flowing to the 5 and 6? or is that something that doesn't need to be done? so far it seems like those are the first cylinders to go. or is it better to leave them all the same and just run on the richer side on pump like 10.5 to 11?

really though the more i think about it i'm leaning towards there's too much timing because on my piggy back it would get lean sometimes on pump like close to 12:1 when fiddling with things the first time. i ran on 18psi alllllll the time too sometimes it would spike to 19 or 20psi when it was really cold out. yet that motor lasted forever towards the end i was literally trying to blow it up and it wouldn't lol. also another piece that would lead me toward that is on my piggy back on 18psi it made 440whp(on a heart breaker dyno dynamics btw reads 15% lower than a jet). the standalone iirc we made around there on the first pulls which 12-14 degrees it was on the lower end i remember for sure. then we bumped it up a degree at a time to 470whp and stopped at 17 since i thought that was safe. yet the fact that i used to mess with the fuel like crazy on the piggy back really is pointing towards too much timing....all i know is i'm going to be much more careful this time i always just sorta sent it with my supra which worked great for years on the piggy back but i guess the standalone you can't do that lol
 

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Yes, try to run 12 to 14 degrees of timing on pump. Up to 15psi should be safe. And 12 is very lean for our motors that don't have stock compression. Try close to 10.5 and 11 max. Small variations depending on overboost etc. can really make or break something. Piggybacks normally ran very rich but you'd make slightly less power unless you tune then very well. Standalone is quite different believe it or not:/
 

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boost'en down 101
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1,243 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
ok cool thanks for the advice! would detonation from timing cause the loss of compression like that without severally damaging a piston?
 

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Hey man - please, please throw some paragraph breaks in. It's a pain in the ass to follow what you're saying with a wall of text. That shit out of the way:

The piston damage does look a lot like dirt/crap getting digested by the engine, but piston pieces do that same damage too after detonation events.

11.5:1 is as lean as I like to go on pump. With higher static CR like your setup I agree wholeheartedly with the advice to run 10.5 or 11.0:1 or so, only I would advise that regardless of fuel, really. The richer A/F helps keep EGT's down too which lessens the overall thermal beating your engine is taking.

But none of the stuff you're doing or the failures you've seen tell me that you need a built motor. I'd find another junkyard GE honestly and send it with the configuration you've got going already.

If you had that same FFIM through your 5 year run on the first stock engine that lasted so well, I strongly, strongly doubt you need to do any by-cyl fuel trim adjustment in the ECUmaster. Your injectors are balanced, you've got enough fuel system, I strongly, strongly doubt that's the problem.

A few things did stick out, though - when you were you talking about the voltage issue, you mentioned the voltage on the SAFC-II - is that still installed even with the standalone? Are you 100% sure it is not changing any input into the EMU?

I'd also double check your timing sync with the EMU - have you verified that 10* in the EMU is 10* on the crank pulley with a timing light?
What are you running for cam/crank sensors?



Two things stick out to me from your setup:
1: Lack of knock sensors
2: Tuning via SAFC.

I would address those.
Did you catch the part about how that setup lasted him 5 + years with lots of abuse and 131mph traps, and his 'addressing those' is what precipitated this whole mess?
 

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Hey man - please, please throw some paragraph breaks in. It's a pain in the ass to follow what you're saying with a wall of text. That shit out of the way:

The piston damage does look a lot like dirt/crap getting digested by the engine, but piston pieces do that same damage too after detonation events.

11.5:1 is as lean as I like to go on pump. With higher static CR like your setup I agree wholeheartedly with the advice to run 10.5 or 11.0:1 or so, only I would advise that regardless of fuel, really. The richer A/F helps keep EGT's down too which lessens the overall thermal beating your engine is taking.

But none of the stuff you're doing or the failures you've seen tell me that you need a built motor. I'd find another junkyard GE honestly and send it with the configuration you've got going already.

If you had that same FFIM through your 5 year run on the first stock engine that lasted so well, I strongly, strongly doubt you need to do any by-cyl fuel trim adjustment in the ECUmaster. Your injectors are balanced, you've got enough fuel system, I strongly, strongly doubt that's the problem.

A few things did stick out, though - when you were you talking about the voltage issue, you mentioned the voltage on the SAFC-II - is that still installed even with the standalone? Are you 100% sure it is not changing any input into the EMU?

I'd also double check your timing sync with the EMU - have you verified that 10* in the EMU is 10* on the crank pulley with a timing light?
What are you running for cam/crank sensors?





Did you catch the part about how that setup lasted him 5 + years with lots of abuse and 131mph traps, and his 'addressing those' is what precipitated this whole mess?
No, it was hard to sort through his long single run on sentence
 

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No, it was hard to sort through his long single run on sentence
I'm guessing this is what happens when posts are made using a phone as an input device? Just guessing here, I'm a desktop user myself.

Black89T, I've seen you around the forums for years now bud, had no idea you had had such rough luck in recent years, sorry to hear that. To answer your question about detonation causing compression loss, I could perhaps see that happening if you were to blow part of a ring off. Have you done a leakdown test yet? Compression only tells half the story... If there's something amiss with the head, that could be the issue.
 

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boost'en down 101
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Discussion Starter #14
Yeah now I'm tuning with the ecu master I had the safc2 before and left it hooked up for a bit after the ecu install. That's how I noticed the voltage difference but that was before my charge lights were blinking it hasn't been hooked up for a while. I sync'd the timing after every motor install. You just lock the timing at 10 degrees then adjust the cam sensor to where it reads 10 on the crank pulley right?

I'm using all stock 7m stuff cps, coils, ect...

It's definitely loss of compression after it happens it smokes out my catch can like crazy tons of blow by tall tail signs of combustion leaking into the crankcase. Every motor has been a long block too with the head that comes with it. I just throw a tt head gasket on and make sure the valves are adjusted correctly. So it's not the head whatever is happening is damaging the rings or piston or something then the motor just starts smoking more and more in a pretty short period of time. Really thinking it's too much timing for the 91 pump gas since that the main difference in parameters compared to the safc2. Like i said before it used to get lean like high 11's allllll the time on 18psi was never a problem and I drive the shit out of my car that's why i have it.

Can't think of anything else it could be. I got another long block I'm going to give it another try I really want to have my car back on the road it's sat long enough and all the racing is going to start soon!
 

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Yeah now I'm tuning with the ecu master I had the safc2 before and left it hooked up for a bit after the ecu install. That's how I noticed the voltage difference but that was before my charge lights were blinking it hasn't been hooked up for a while. I sync'd the timing after every motor install. You just lock the timing at 10 degrees then adjust the cam sensor to where it reads 10 on the crank pulley right?

I'm using all stock 7m stuff cps, coils, ect...

It's definitely loss of compression after it happens it smokes out my catch can like crazy tons of blow by tall tail signs of combustion leaking into the crankcase. Every motor has been a long block too with the head that comes with it. I just throw a tt head gasket on and make sure the valves are adjusted correctly. So it's not the head whatever is happening is damaging the rings or piston or something then the motor just starts smoking more and more in a pretty short period of time. Really thinking it's too much timing for the 91 pump gas since that the main difference in parameters compared to the safc2. Like i said before it used to get lean like high 11's allllll the time on 18psi was never a problem and I drive the shit out of my car that's why i have it.

Can't think of anything else it could be. I got another long block I'm going to give it another try I really want to have my car back on the road it's sat long enough and all the racing is going to start soon!
Yes, so long as when you're locked at 10* in the ECU and it's show 10* current advance in the ECU, and you've got 10* on the crank pulley according to the timing light, you should be good to go. Assuming the woodruff key that aligns the crank pulley isn't all fucked up or anything like that.

How much timing advance are you running around peak tq? With Cali pump 91 I'd imagine that it should be in the 8-10* range to avoid detonating for sure, particularly considering your 9.2:1-ish static compression ratio and stock GE cams.

Hope you get it back up and running - I do love how ruthlessly straightforward your OG setup was, but once the ECUmaster is dialed in it really ought to be an overall improvement.

Oh, another question - are you still using the stock 7M-GTE CPS? What are you doing for a crank sensor signal?
 

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Hi guys, long time lurker don’t post often but can offer advice based on my experience.

Your problem seems to be three fold.

1. Your ignition timing at cruise is too low -10 to -14 degrees causing excessive egt and cylinder temps at cruise and decel. You can also be washing down the cylinders due to incomplete combustion and retarded timing. The piston and cylinder wear marks are showing this.

2. You are running lean AFR in boost with no meth to richen it up-but must think in terms of your setup. That sxe Borg Warner spools fast and is flowing a lot of air in the midrange. Much more than say an old t61 that didn’t blow up on you 5 years ago similar setups. So burst knock and slight detonation is possibly happening if your fuel map is not dialed in smooth. That 4900-5600 area is critical.

3. You don’t manage your ignition timing around peak torque appropriately, you ultimately want to drop 2-5 degrees and slowly bake it back in at higher rpm as your VE naturally drops off. I’m gonna guess you are running around 14 degrees at the onset of your peak torque then it increases to 16-17 degrees as the turbo is coming up hard then plateaus out at 14 degrees out top. That’s very aggressive to increase timing during that stage and especially for 650+HP. So it might run fine for a while as you see but the piston is heating up, expanding and basically seizing in the bores. The rings don’t appear to have butted up or it would have ripped the ring lands off. Basing this off that 4900-5600 area again, since There is no datalog of any pulls. If you do you can post though that would be quite helpful.

But I know you also mention you run 110 so I’m guessing this is the map for that above as well? I ultimately think you need to work on your peak torque ignition timing transition and the fueling especially since you are on pump gas for the majority of the time. You need to be in the mid 30 timing range at cruise and reduce slightly during tip in and richen your AFR up across the board a little since you don’t have knock sensors. Toyota knock system was very sensitive and has saved HUNDREDS of motors with the way they tuned it back in the day even with the piggybacks and street tuners.

I run 700whp+ on my 7m on e85 with cast s366 so I am super cautious on my tuning and learned quite a bit on VE and ignition timing needs when I was doing the dyno work with a tuner buddy of mines. Broke my r154 so switching that soon and s372sxe to push more power this summer.
 

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Super Moderator
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Hi guys, long time lurker don’t post often but can offer advice based on my experience.

Your problem seems to be three fold.

1. Your ignition timing at cruise is too low -10 to -14 degrees causing excessive egt and cylinder temps at cruise and decel. You can also be washing down the cylinders due to incomplete combustion and retarded timing. The piston and cylinder wear marks are showing this.

2. You are running lean AFR in boost with no meth to richen it up-but must think in terms of your setup. That sxe Borg Warner spools fast and is flowing a lot of air in the midrange. Much more than say an old t61 that didn’t blow up on you 5 years ago similar setups. So burst knock and slight detonation is possibly happening if your fuel map is not dialed in smooth. That 4900-5600 area is critical.

3. You don’t manage your ignition timing around peak torque appropriately, you ultimately want to drop 2-5 degrees and slowly bake it back in at higher rpm as your VE naturally drops off. I’m gonna guess you are running around 14 degrees at the onset of your peak torque then it increases to 16-17 degrees as the turbo is coming up hard then plateaus out at 14 degrees out top. That’s very aggressive to increase timing during that stage and especially for 650+HP. So it might run fine for a while as you see but the piston is heating up, expanding and basically seizing in the bores. The rings don’t appear to have butted up or it would have ripped the ring lands off. Basing this off that 4900-5600 area again, since There is no datalog of any pulls. If you do you can post though that would be quite helpful.

But I know you also mention you run 110 so I’m guessing this is the map for that above as well? I ultimately think you need to work on your peak torque ignition timing transition and the fueling especially since you are on pump gas for the majority of the time. You need to be in the mid 30 timing range at cruise and reduce slightly during tip in and richen your AFR up across the board a little since you don’t have knock sensors. Toyota knock system was very sensitive and has saved HUNDREDS of motors with the way they tuned it back in the day even with the piggybacks and street tuners.

I run 700whp+ on my 7m on e85 with cast s366 so I am super cautious on my tuning and learned quite a bit on VE and ignition timing needs when I was doing the dyno work with a tuner buddy of mines. Broke my r154 so switching that soon and s372sxe to push more power this summer.

I'm currently overseas and image links are blocked, so I had to look at each one individually with a workaround and I didn't see the one with his timing map - great feedback on setting up timing advance, and I totally agree on 17* being pretty damn spicy for that part of the map!

That said, dude, 700whp 7M? Post some pictures of your ride in the Mk3 section!!!!
 

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boost'en down 101
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Discussion Starter #18
Yes, so long as when you're locked at 10* in the ECU and it's show 10* current advance in the ECU, and you've got 10* on the crank pulley according to the timing light, you should be good to go. Assuming the woodruff key that aligns the crank pulley isn't all fucked up or anything like that.

How much timing advance are you running around peak tq? With Cali pump 91 I'd imagine that it should be in the 8-10* range to avoid detonating for sure, particularly considering your 9.2:1-ish static compression ratio and stock GE cams.

Hope you get it back up and running - I do love how ruthlessly straightforward your OG setup was, but once the ECUmaster is dialed in it really ought to be an overall improvement.

Oh, another question - are you still using the stock 7M-GTE CPS? What are you doing for a crank sensor signal?
Running 13-14 on peak torque then taper to 17 to redline. I'm guessing you can't see the timing map I posted. Yes still using the cps and don't have a crank sensor signal.

Hi guys, long time lurker don’t post often but can offer advice based on my experience.

Your problem seems to be three fold.

1. Your ignition timing at cruise is too low -10 to -14 degrees causing excessive egt and cylinder temps at cruise and decel. You can also be washing down the cylinders due to incomplete combustion and retarded timing. The piston and cylinder wear marks are showing this.

2. You are running lean AFR in boost with no meth to richen it up-but must think in terms of your setup. That sxe Borg Warner spools fast and is flowing a lot of air in the midrange. Much more than say an old t61 that didn’t blow up on you 5 years ago similar setups. So burst knock and slight detonation is possibly happening if your fuel map is not dialed in smooth. That 4900-5600 area is critical.

3. You don’t manage your ignition timing around peak torque appropriately, you ultimately want to drop 2-5 degrees and slowly bake it back in at higher rpm as your VE naturally drops off. I’m gonna guess you are running around 14 degrees at the onset of your peak torque then it increases to 16-17 degrees as the turbo is coming up hard then plateaus out at 14 degrees out top. That’s very aggressive to increase timing during that stage and especially for 650+HP. So it might run fine for a while as you see but the piston is heating up, expanding and basically seizing in the bores. The rings don’t appear to have butted up or it would have ripped the ring lands off. Basing this off that 4900-5600 area again, since There is no datalog of any pulls. If you do you can post though that would be quite helpful.

But I know you also mention you run 110 so I’m guessing this is the map for that above as well? I ultimately think you need to work on your peak torque ignition timing transition and the fueling especially since you are on pump gas for the majority of the time. You need to be in the mid 30 timing range at cruise and reduce slightly during tip in and richen your AFR up across the board a little since you don’t have knock sensors. Toyota knock system was very sensitive and has saved HUNDREDS of motors with the way they tuned it back in the day even with the piggybacks and street tuners.

I run 700whp+ on my 7m on e85 with cast s366 so I am super cautious on my tuning and learned quite a bit on VE and ignition timing needs when I was doing the dyno work with a tuner buddy of mines. Broke my r154 so switching that soon and s372sxe to push more power this summer.
Thank you very much for the detailed post! Can you not see my ignition table either though? It's the first picture I posted. By your post it sounds like you can but if you can't I can try hosting it on photobucket so eveyone can see.

1. So you suggest I run in the mid 30's as oppose to high 20's during cruise?

2. On the piggy back I ran a sx63 for years also that's the turbo I was trapping 131mph. Then after that I had the standalone for a bit I went to the sxe64.5 that only spools slightly faster. I'll make sure to richen things up all around.

3. The timing map I posted is the only one I have. When we tuned it with race gas that was in the higher end 30psi settling at 28psi. It stopped making more power with anything more than 14 degrees so we left it there. On pump gas it kept gaining power with more timing but left it at 17 because i thought that was safe oops lol. It's making 540whp on a dyno jet with pump gas. So that's the hp it's blowing up on just to clarify.

That's some great advice and I think you're right about the pistons getting too hot. I don't think its just from ignition detonation. Either way the timing is definitely too much for 91 pump gas I can't believe i thought the stock ecu ran low 20's all this time....That's why I over looked that part even though it makes sense it has to be more since it made 30whp over the piggyback with just timing. I'm optimistic about this time around really think things are going in the right direction to fix the problem. I'll adjust my timing table and post it on here before I run the car again.

Thanks again everyone!
 

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boost'en down 101
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1,243 Posts
Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
So I got my long block home! Going to start the swap soon should have it done in a week or two depending how much time I have to put towards it. Made some adjustments to my timing table in preparation how's it look?

248572



Here's the 7mgte ecu master base map I made my original table from for reference

248573


I also noticed my injector trim was at 125% I would think they should all be 100%??

248574
 

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boost'en down 101
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1,243 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Anybody?? Lol. I'm starting to think I should take it in for a professional tune. It's just a pita because I have to tow the car 5 hours to the bay area or 7 hours to portland to get to well known shops. Handful of my buddys only take their cars to english racing for tunes. They actually just did a friends rb26 s14. Would be nice to drive around a bit though to make sure the charge light isn't blinking so the cruise timing is my main concern.
 
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