[Frankenstein]

I wanted to share with everyone the status on my quest for a cheaper and yet better turbo kit.

A little primer first: My current 1997 N/A is the second NA supra I have owned. Last year I had a 1997 black auto. The slush box coupled with the NA engine wasn't much fun so I sold it. In June I picked up my new 1997 NA - and like my last NA - vowed to make 300hp all motor.

No way.

So I started looking at turbo kits. Most of the kits in th $5,000 range (Fmax style) include turbos that are trimmed for not more than 300hp and have small additional fuel systems. The toyomoto kit was $8,000.

I decided there has to be a cheaper way. With some very good help from Dave H, I have accumulated most of the parts and knowledge to do my own turbo kit for around $3,000.

Here is what I have purchased so far and the cost including tax and shipping:

$650 T04E Turbo - .60/.69 Flows up to 550hp. (New but from private party)

$720 FMax Header (new from mmrusa.com)

$300 40mm TiAl Wastegate with .4Bar spring (new from XTech engineering)

$100 Greddy Type S BOV (used from private party)

$160 SMIC with all piping, I can use some of it (used from private party)

$97 Walbro 255ltr/hr standard pressure fuel pump (new from autoperformanceengineering.com)

So now, I have to get a custom downpipe welded and some intercooler hardpipes fabricated and the turbo oil cooler lines and fittings (probably around $250 for these) and I would be set to roll low boost on the stock fuel system and probably make about 300hp.

These are the parts to the fuel system I plan on buying to put me into the 400+ hp area and ensure proper fuel supply:

$550 Greddy Rebic IV (new from horsepowerfreaks.com)

$250 Greddy 720cc injectors (2) and mounts, grommets, harnesses (new from horsepowerfreaks.com)

$100 Boost controller (either new manual, or used electronic)

$85 Low compression head gasket (avail from some company in the back of Turbo mag)


Summarize:

300 hp (but running 330cc injectors almost full duty) = $2277

400+ hp the right way = $3626


Granted, this is all bench dragracing, and the car is up on jack stands to spring, but I am confident. Not too bad cost wise. And if you are ONLY shooting for that 300hp target, you can knock about $400 off that price by buying a T3 turbo and a 35mm wastegate.

 

[DaveH]

Looking good Frankenstein, the only flaw in your system that I see is trying to use the stock fuel injectors for 300hp. You need to add quite a bit of extra fuel under boost, and the stock ecu won't do that (it doesn't even know you are boosting). You will run lean and maybe hurt something depending on how much boost you run. You can get a Cartech (or other brand) FMU, this is a rising rate fuel pressure regulator that raises fuel pressure sky high when you boost. This would be the only way to safely run just the stock injectors. You would definitely want to tune this system on a dyno to make sure you are raising fuel pressure high enough, and also to make sure you don't run too much boost and overpower the sotck injectors. Definitely don't use a boost controller on this system... that is what I did and when I had a boost spike ( f'n Profec A) I melted a couple valves. Good luck!

 

[Frankenstein]

I thought that might be the case. I am headed straight to step 2, so I should have the additional injectors and controller ready for tuning by snow melt, then I will head over to Elite to have them make it fast

I think if someone were on a more limited budget though, they could take that first path and get 'er to work. Maybe wouldn't be quite 300hp. It is 5.8 psi. Not sure where that would put it.

btw - did you mean not to use a bc on the system BEFORE the additional injectors and aic, or at ANY time?

 

[Guest]

Additional injector controller

You might take a look at using this for fuel control

Rob_O

 

[Frankenstein]

I don't know about that thing. The price is right, but I worry about it being difficult to tune...

Plus the injector paks kind of fall right on either side of what I was shooting for. 2 will not be enough, but 4 is overkill.

I was planning on running 2 720cc injectors at the intake elbow. to get the same delivery, I would have to mount 4 of those puppies on there - kinda crowded.

Hmmmm..... Dave?

 

[Guest]

Ideally, we would want a fuel controller that give the maximum extra fuel at peak torque with a slope on either side of the peak (picture a really lopsided bell curve). I don't think either of these will allow us to do that. The Haltech seems to do about the same as the SDS, the Greedy has a third adjustment but I'm not 100% sure what it does (I think it's a maximum flow limiter). This is based only on what information I've had access to over the great internet (and we know what a good source it can be). If I'm unclear about any of this please let me know

As far as the injectors go, I'm sure you could buy them somewhere else. Just make sure the injectors are compatible with the driver you are using (low or high impedance)

Of course, I'm obviously an idiot and talking out my ass here... I just got back from a car dealer, they told me that my '96 Eclipse Spyder (turbo, of course) and my '90 Chebby van (Custom love machine tow vehicle) are worth about $6500 together against the SC300 they had for $16.5K

Gotta raise a flag on that one :bsflag:

Rob_O
Moron at large

 

[DaveH]

Rob_O: you gotta love dealerships.... lol all their shit is made of gold and everyones trade-ins are a pos.

Frankenstein: I actually had one of those SDS EIC's, but I sold it before I ever installed it and bought a Rebic instead. I changed my mind about using the EIC because it only reads up to 20psi of boost (at least that is what they said back then).

 

[Frankenstein]

OT: Dealerships can suck it for the most part. I have dealt with them so much and usually get screwed, even when I think I beat them. My last experience was a winner, though. I bought my winter car from a chain dealership - loaded 1997 Audi A4 Quattro with 70k miles on it. It was in pretty good shape, but a couple things. Their discount price was 17k - I got it for 15k - and I got them to put a brand new turbo on it and new tires! I think they sold it to me at 15k knowing the tire sizes were mismatched (bad for an awd) and that the turbo was shot. They were rolling the dice that I wouldn't know better. So I pinned them under the no lemon law to either fix it or take it back. Woo hoo. I won.

Anyways, back to the topic: I think I am going to give that SDS EIC a shot. I sent them an email and hopefully they can tell me what brand of injectors they use. Then I can get a couple 660 or 720cc injectors to use with their kit. I only plan on running around 15psi, so hopefully I am good to go.

Is it bad to run injectors full duty? Will the stock ecu even do that? To rephrase: When I am on boost the AFM will max out the injectors, right? Is that bad?

 

[Guest]

Frankenstein this is just an idea for you but you can save some money is you go with the Stock TT Rail and Injectors. I'm not sure how much horsepower they can handle but I'm sure that they will be just fine for what you are looking to get which 400 if I remember correctly. I talked with Dave Henry about this and he thought that it would be good and it would also save money. Thanks and LMK

 

[vreaux728645]

Don't forget the clutch upgrade Frankenstein!

 

[Frankenstein]

If I run the TT fuel rail (or even just bigger injectors in my rail for that matter), I have to use a VPC which is like $1,200.

My clutch is toast anyways, so that is on the to do list as well. I might have the pros do it though. I am not excited about dropping the tranny...

 

[Dave Capone]

What about an MKIII turbo kit? Its seems like the IC pipping would work with our NA motors, maybe the bolt pattern on the exhaust manifold is also the same, has anyone tried this? Or is it completely different?

 

[Guest]

maybe the bolt pattern on the exhaust manifold is also the same

Completely different

Rob_O

 

[Guest]

When I am on boost the AFM will max out the injectors, right? Is that bad?

Yes, that's bad

I was doing some searching on additional injectors last night and found this. You need to have a laptop to program it but it's more like a stand-alone fuel system in its tuneability and the price is great. It'll drive 2 low impedance injectors so you can run the 2 660s, 720s or even a pair of the big-ass bosch methanol ones (160 PPH).

Rob_O

 

[Dave Capone]

Rob_O what about the IC pipping?

 

[Frankenstein]

I think you misunderstood my question Rob - I didn't mean is running lean bad, obviously that is the case. I wanted to know if it is bad for the stock injectors to be running full duty all the time when I am on boost. The additional injectors will keep the fuel supplied, I just want to know if a solenoid is going to melt on the stock injectors...

As for that ECU, that is not for me


From Website:
This is NOT a bolt on system, and is not smog legal. Anyone with little fabrication experience, or those who want a turn-key project car should stick with the stock CIS. Though this system is easy to program, and will result in magnificent performance, it will require a period of tuning a tweaking until the fuel curve is acceptable under varying conditions and circumstances. If you like to fabricate, like to tweek, are patient, and find enjoyment in a project well done- please contact me with any questions and we can move forward.

 

[Guest]

Axion: I couldn't tell you about the IC piping... I can only tell you what I have managed to figure out by looking at the various install pics and information online. There's a lot of knowledge to be found if you can sort through the BS

Frankenstein: Injectors do not like to be run at more than 85% duty cycle for extended periods of time. I doubt you will have problems unless you are planning on doing top speed runs at bonneville or something like the silver state challenge (WFO for 90 miles). If this is the case then you better rethink your whole plan

As far as the ECU goes the basic settings don't appear to be any harder to program than any of the other controllers. You just gain added tuneability like you do with a GCC or an AFC (but only for the additional injectors). I would like to find out from him at what rate the additional fuel "ramps up" but I do understand how the map gain gives you more tuning ability

Lots of people have used the Rebic or the F5 and been happy with them. If that's the route you feel comfortable going then do so. I like having the ability to do a little more tweaking but I'm not quite ready to step up to a full standalone system so I think this will be a good choice for me

Rob_O

 

[Frankenstein]

Frankenstein: Injectors do not like to be run at more than 85% duty cycle for extended periods of time. I doubt you will have problems unless you are planning on doing top speed runs at bonneville or something like the silver state challenge (WFO for 90 miles). If this is the case then you better rethink your whole plan

I guess what I was wondering was if the stock afm and ecu will run the injectors at full duty cycle or if it will cap them at like 80%. On a pull that could be 15 seconds of full duty if I am on boost all the time. I doubt it would be a problem, but that is what I was really wondering.

 

[Guest]

Call Toyomoto and ask them, I'm sure they have plenty of dyno experience with the turbo conversions and can give you the full skinny on it.

While you have them on the phone see what they are getting for a manifold, the Lexus guys seem to think it's a *much* better piece than the F-Max one.

Rob_O

 

[DaveH]

Frankenstein, for what you are gonna pay for the Rebic and the extra injectors, you can prob get a VPC and bigger primaries. I've seen used high imp 550's on thepartstrader for $250, and you can find used VPC's in the $600 range. Look for a used MKIII Supra VPC, that is what you need anyway, and they sell cheaper than the ones set up for the MKIV.