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Discussion Starter #1
Need Help Deciding - F-Con V Pro, VPC&GCC Combo, or eManage Ultimate? (I can explain)

I recently purchased a T04Z kit and it's now installed on my car. The goal was/is to run the HKS F-Con V Pro as a piggy-back, which I also purchased, along with the HKS 800cc injectors. Long-story-short, getting someone to tune my F Con in the Bay Area is looking near impossible. Bulletproof Auto is currently preparing a price for me to have the car tuned, but I'm sure it's going to be pricey because they'll have to fly somebody in. That's not even my main concern - my main concern is all the Tuners I've known of throughout the 10-12 years I've been into these cars are no longer in the tuning biz (Justin Nenni, John Reed doesn't do F Cons anymore, can't get a hold of Obiwan). My car was built by Bruce Nomura and I'd rather have him tune the car, but he's not a Pro Dealer at this time.

Now I'm at the point where I'm thinking of changing directions and trying the Greddy eManage Ultimate, which can only be run piggy-back...perfect!. The software is available online and they have a tech support, I can use my 800cc injectors, Bruce can tune it - life would be good! But, I don't see much feedback on these units on here. Anybody familiar with these?

Or, I can stay a little simpler and go with the VPC/GCC combo, but I'm not sure how well that will work with my 800cc injectors, which are also high impedance. I was thinking I could step down to the HKS 650cc because my gut feeling is the 800cc's are a little too big, but I wasn't worried about that initially because I thought I would be using this F Con. Is there enough "adjustment" within the "tuning" on the VPC/GCC combo?

My goal for the car is not to make as much power as possible. I'm planning on somewhere around 550-600 at the wheels. A strong street car that I can drive to the track, have fun and drive home.
 

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I'd find another standalone personally. The HKS FCon is old technology. There are plenty of tuners in your area for the PRO EFI or something else. Is the need to do a "piggyback" type ecu due to the fact that you have to get the car smogged? If so, I believe PRO EFI is capable of tricking those testers.

Steve K.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I'd find another standalone personally. The HKS FCon is old technology. There are plenty of tuners in your area for the PRO EFI or something else. Is the need to do a "piggyback" type ecu due to the fact that you have to get the car smogged? If so, I believe PRO EFI is capable of tricking those testers.

Steve K.
Thanks Steve and JustinCT. I am not against running another ECU at all, hence the eManage suggestion. I just have always heard about how great cars run with the F-Con. Is the Pro EFI ECU software proprietary? I'll have to look into these some more. I'm not a fan of AEM. Just my personal opinion.
 

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As far as I know, anyone can download the software for tuning. I'm not sure if there is a dealer-specific software bundle that has more features though I'm certain someone else can chime in. I do know that you will need a specific tuning cable available through pro efi, but whoever you choose for a tuner may have that. There are a lot of other great options available including Motec m-series, AEM infinity (which I have been running successfully), etc. I've also heard great things time and time again about how well cars idle/run with pro efi. It makes me want to try one to compare back to back with the infinity. With all of the options available I would not bother with an eManage. You might check with Lawrence in Santa Rosa to see if he has any availability for tuning. He'd be the local guy to go to. If you have fb, feel free to join the NorCal supra group if you're not already on there.
 

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If you get the PRO EFI and have it professional tuned, it is literally set it and forget it.

Steve K.
 

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I have a VPC, SFC, BCC combo and 750cc injectors. I am running 15 PSI on gas for whatever power that gives me (I'm told mid 400s at the wheels). My car runs great but I'm not pushing it at all. Here are my thoughts on this setup in general.

1. It sucks. It's 2016. Piggybacks are SUPER dated. I have a whole collection of little boxes with flashy lights, knobs and buttons that I have to use regularly to make my car run right depending on temperature, atmospheric pressure and humidity. That being said I understand how each of these inputs affects my engine and I can make adjustments on any given day with relative ease and the car runs great. It's by no means a set and forget setup.

2. You probably cannot properly manage timing with piggy backs. There are some that offer a certain level of adjustment but if you want proper timing control, you need standalone. Otherwise you have to install ANOTHER piggyback on top of your already multiple piggybacks to half asses manage timing. This is very important at your power level as you are probably creeping into the mid 20s on boost. From what I am told by "real" tuners (guys with shops that tune cars full time or close to it), 18 is about the limit on boost with piggyback and you need to be careful shifting into high gears under power even at that. (especially if you have an auto as I do)

3. Like timing above, you probably cannot manage injector duty accurately. I have 7 useful points of adjustment on my SFC (there are really 8 but I don't rev to 8k). SEVEN!!! THAT'S IT! There's no accounting for ANYTHING outside of that small number of reference points. On my setup I have to pull a little fuel in the 1-3k range, a LOT of fuel in the 3-5k range and hardly any fuel in the 5-7k range. That has to be about the most wacked out fuel curve I've ever seen. Plus I'm pretty sure my car runs open loop 99% of the time.

4. I'm paranoid all the time. As I said before, the car runs and pulls great. I love it. I'm also going ProEFI as soon as I have the money. The behavior of the setup is inconsistent enough that you have to pay attention each time you drive it under different conditions. I just purchased my car in January and spent all my money just getting it to where nothing offended me when I drove it and to get it reliable. The first thing I'm doing when the car goes away for the winter (after storing my drag radials and fancy wheels in my heated basement, of course) is ripping out the rats nest of piggyback wires and installing an standalone.

Couple more notes. The VPC has a temp sensor that gets heat soaked and your car will run lean on hot starts. You need to move some air through the engine to get everything back where it's supposed to be. Also every piggyback that I am aware of basically works by telling the stock ECU that there is less air entering the engine than there actually is and then translating based on its own value for injector correction. This is where your fuel adjustment comes in. You have to make "minor" corrections where this translation is inaccurate. This is problematic because the stock ECU will set other parameters based on this lower reading that are no longer applicable because you're REALLY cramming TONS more air into the engine. ANY stored tables in the stock ECU are now wrong and invalid because at 11 PSI you could be fine all day at 21 degrees timing but at 21PSI you should probably only be 12! Plus saturated injector driving just sucks when you need to produce power.

Keep in mind I'm VERY anal about the way my car runs. I spend a lot of time working on cars and I don't leave things to chance. I could get in my car tonight and drive cross country without having to worry about whether or not something will break and if I didn't think that was the case, it would be apart in my garage (again) until I figured out the issue.

In conclusion I don't know how much you can actually push the piggyback "safely" beyond what I run. I have heard of piggyback systems that run the power you are shooting for but they are generally running another device to pull timing and also seem to commonly run meth injection. They can certainly be had on the cheap and my car runs fine with them but again I digress, I am not pushing the limits at all. I personally recommend standalone. I know you don't like AEM but the V2 system is a perfectly good candidate for the supra at your power levels on a budget. ProEFI is my choice if for no other reason than my local tuner prefers it but it's also probably second only to Motec in capability based on my research.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I have a VPC, SFC, BCC combo and 750cc injectors. I am running 15 PSI on gas for whatever power that gives me (I'm told mid 400s at the wheels). My car runs great but I'm not pushing it at all. Here are my thoughts on this setup in general.

1. It sucks. It's 2016. Piggybacks are SUPER dated. I have a whole collection of little boxes with flashy lights, knobs and buttons that I have to use regularly to make my car run right depending on temperature, atmospheric pressure and humidity. That being said I understand how each of these inputs affects my engine and I can make adjustments on any given day with relative ease and the car runs great. It's by no means a set and forget setup.

2. You probably cannot properly manage timing with piggy backs. There are some that offer a certain level of adjustment but if you want proper timing control, you need standalone. Otherwise you have to install ANOTHER piggyback on top of your already multiple piggybacks to half asses manage timing. This is very important at your power level as you are probably creeping into the mid 20s on boost. From what I am told by "real" tuners (guys with shops that tune cars full time or close to it), 18 is about the limit on boost with piggyback and you need to be careful shifting into high gears under power even at that. (especially if you have an auto as I do)

3. Like timing above, you probably cannot manage injector duty accurately. I have 7 useful points of adjustment on my SFC (there are really 8 but I don't rev to 8k). SEVEN!!! THAT'S IT! There's no accounting for ANYTHING outside of that small number of reference points. On my setup I have to pull a little fuel in the 1-3k range, a LOT of fuel in the 3-5k range and hardly any fuel in the 5-7k range. That has to be about the most wacked out fuel curve I've ever seen. Plus I'm pretty sure my car runs open loop 99% of the time.

4. I'm paranoid all the time. As I said before, the car runs and pulls great. I love it. I'm also going ProEFI as soon as I have the money. The behavior of the setup is inconsistent enough that you have to pay attention each time you drive it under different conditions. I just purchased my car in January and spent all my money just getting it to where nothing offended me when I drove it and to get it reliable. The first thing I'm doing when the car goes away for the winter (after storing my drag radials and fancy wheels in my heated basement, of course) is ripping out the rats nest of piggyback wires and installing an standalone.

Couple more notes. The VPC has a temp sensor that gets heat soaked and your car will run lean on hot starts. You need to move some air through the engine to get everything back where it's supposed to be. Also every piggyback that I am aware of basically works by telling the stock ECU that there is less air entering the engine than there actually is and then translating based on its own value for injector correction. This is where your fuel adjustment comes in. You have to make "minor" corrections where this translation is inaccurate. This is problematic because the stock ECU will set other parameters based on this lower reading that are no longer applicable because you're REALLY cramming TONS more air into the engine. ANY stored tables in the stock ECU are now wrong and invalid because at 11 PSI you could be fine all day at 21 degrees timing but at 21PSI you should probably only be 12! Plus saturated injector driving just sucks when you need to produce power.

Keep in mind I'm VERY anal about the way my car runs. I spend a lot of time working on cars and I don't leave things to chance. I could get in my car tonight and drive cross country without having to worry about whether or not something will break and if I didn't think that was the case, it would be apart in my garage (again) until I figured out the issue.

In conclusion I don't know how much you can actually push the piggyback "safely" beyond what I run. I have heard of piggyback systems that run the power you are shooting for but they are generally running another device to pull timing and also seem to commonly run meth injection. They can certainly be had on the cheap and my car runs fine with them but again I digress, I am not pushing the limits at all. I personally recommend standalone. I know you don't like AEM but the V2 system is a perfectly good candidate for the supra at your power levels on a budget. ProEFI is my choice if for no other reason than my local tuner prefers it but it's also probably second only to Motec in capability based on my research.
Thank you for the details, Carman336. I have some experience with the VPC on stock twins and the car ran great. I haven't made any decision as of yet, however I don't want to use the VPC setup anymore. I'd like to try something new/different for myself as far as fuel management/Engine control. Anybody know where I can buy any patience? I don't have any when it comes to my car :)
 

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Go for F-con V Pro V3.24, from my experience it is a great EMS.
 

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Go for F-con V Pro V3.24, from my experience it is a great EMS.
This.

The nearest Pro Dealer to you is Evasive Motorsports in Santa Fe Springs, CA. Jason Reinholdt, Evasive's Chief Supra tech, is F-CON V Pro certified and as good as they come. He has tuned the V Pro on two of my three of my MKIVs. The V Pro in general, and Jason's work in particular, is most definitely set and forget. If you do not want to pay a shop to tune your car, Chris Wealch, cwtt on SF, is also an excellent V Pro tuner and has the software as well. Chris resides in the San Diego area.

FWIW, if you do not have a ProEFI tuner in the Bay Area, then, the nearest certified tuner is also in southern California so, essentially, you face the same issue with it as you do the F-CON V Pro or any of the other mainstream EMSs available for our cars. You already have the V Pro in hand so, assuming all things being equal in terms of your proximity to a good tuner, I do not think it is necessary for you to bear the expense of purchasing another EMS to resolve your tuner proximity issue. Good luck.

Ken.
 

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Forgot to mention that Chris Wealch, cwtt, also tunes the ProEFI, which is the EMS he has on his car at present, IIRC. Chris tunes most, if not all, of the big power San Diego Supras, and is as good as any of the dedicated shop tuners, IMO.

Ken.
 

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Ken Henderson - Great Advice as usual :)
Like Ken said "assuming all things being equal in terms of your proximity to a good tuner, I do not think it is necessary for you to bear the expense of purchasing another EMS to resolve your tuner proximity issue". My Builder and Tuner Loves the F-Con and as you heard they make great street cars with drivability. He does travel to tune cars if you need someone to do that. Contact [email protected] for more info
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thank Ken and Daniel! I do want to run the F-Con. I understand that, to some, it may be "old technology", but it will more than suffice for what I am trying to accomplish by piggy-backing my stock ECU.

Ken - Chris reached out to me and we're getting the ball rolling. Thanks for the referral.

Daniel- I appreciate your referral, as well as your time.

Jason
 
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