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As stated many times Proefi has a lot of nice features for the money that most others dont have. Is it the best? I dont know but I would buy one ten times over again and I can say this knowing friends who have AEM, xfi, Big stuff 3, Old school gen 6 dfi,megasquirt, etc. I like mine and have converted quite a few. As the old saying goes dont knock it till u try it.
Man I didnt read this thread Just saw your issue, ProEfi without a doubt if your having issues and are upgrading.. shits the top
Guys, this thread isn't about which EMS platform is the best. It's about traction control...which is a feature of the ProEFI and other EMS platforms. Food for thought: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?645801-Traction-Control-feature-request.

Ken.
 

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Sure, hopefully it will work well enough so I can walk a certain trash talker on a crotch rocket
+1 I think a third gear pull will do it just fine.
 

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That's very fair Ken, I agree that it's tough to take advice without real-world use. I'm as big of a customer in this industry as the guys I talk to on the phone and return emails to and have thousands of driving miles on both the street and race track so hopefully my input will be more helpful. Larry, myself, Mike (Junior81), and a number of local guys often discuss TC and how it's worked on our recent cruises (which are pretty often). I don't mean to make this a "which system is better" statement, so please don't take it as that. I will say that I have no experience with the Racelogic directly in my own car. It's tough to offer back-to-back testing since there were likely 30 other variables present that will nullify the test. Traction control is traction control; it doesn't matter whether it's used in a straight line or corners since it has no control over load slip or giving power to the tire with more traction. Traction control merely keeps the rear tires as close to the speed of the front tires by some means of limiting power to the rear tires.

I didn't have a lot of expectations mainly because I was one of those guys that saw TC as a handicap for people who can't handle the car's power rather than just taking advantage of technology as it becomes available to us (which is what we should do rather than ragging on those who are smart enough to use it like many do). Having said that, I have been very impressed with the ProEFI TC. It's a multi-strategy operation that's fully integrated into the rest of the ProEFI system. Having one system see and control all parameters is a powerful tool. I don't run straight-line only tires (aka drag radials) with how many road miles my car sees and frequent the drag strip (most often) and the road course. I do not have enough info on the drag strip yet to give it a proper review but will soon. I have had it on the road course and can say that it was one of the most useful and needed tools I had available to me even on 315-series semi-slick tires.

I am sort of leery to have fuel pulled in order to save traction. The ProEFI TC uses a number of tactics to save traction which includes retarding timing, lowering boost levels momentarily, and invoking a rev-limiter (in extreme cases like Saad's silver car) based on the nature and severity of the spin that the ProEFI sees through the factory ABS wheel speed sensors. It will never pull fuel. I believe the MoTeC system uses a similar approach to the ProEFI and is also very successful but do not know the details. I recall some logs being posted with the MoTeC system a while back which I will consider doing in the future. It would be very interesting to see some sort of direct comparison between the Racelogic, MoTeC, and ProEFI TC systems but in the end, I think you'll find that a racing-style TC in any way will be a BIG help over having none at all.

Reid
 

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Setting up and using both systems I can tell you the Racelogic works very well as does the ProEFI. However, what I love is the most is, the ProEFI is QUIET and also uses the OEM button, On/Off light, and Trac light. No need to look at a display. The Racelogic is like driving on the limiter and on the street attracts nothing but attention when the tires spin and the limiter hits. I can go WOT in traffic and all you hear is the light scrubbing of the tires. The other thing to note is the Racelogic allows a percentage of slip through all speeds. At low speed you might want 100% slip up to 10mph then by 25 no more than 5%. I can set the ProEFI slip based on speed.

Just sayin...
 

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The ProEFI TC uses a number of tactics to save traction which includes retarding timing, lowering boost levels momentarily, and invoking a rev-limiter (in extreme cases like Saad's silver car) based on the nature and severity of the spin that the ProEFI sees through the factory ABS wheel speed sensors. It will never pull fuel.

Reid
I keep seeing it mentioned that the ProEFI can lower boost levels and invoke a rev-limiter if needed, but unless I'm missing it somewhere the only options for traction control adjustment in the user software are timing retard vs. slip.

I'm still not making enough power to really test the traction control, but I will say that I can now shift into 2nd hard and don't just light up the tires, just a quick chirp and it goes. I have logged this and see the timing being pulled momentary a couple of times as it is fighting for traction, then it just goes. It works very well in this situation. I may need to work on the settings but I've found that it does not work so well from a stop launching in 1st I get too much wheel spin.
 

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I keep seeing it mentioned that the ProEFI can lower boost levels and invoke a rev-limiter if needed, but unless I'm missing it somewhere the only options for traction control adjustment in the user software are timing retard vs. slip.

You must go into the fault manager and set that up. Under the fault for differential wheel speed exceeded you can have the ProEFI do up to four actions. I usually setup one as default to base boost, and the next to invoke the rev limiter.

If you haven't played with the fault manager then you are missing out on one of its greatest features!! That is where you can set up all of the safety features of the ProEFI. Things like setting up the check engine light, low oil pressure rev limiters or engine shut down, etc. The possibilities are really endless.
 

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You must go into the fault manager and set that up. Under the fault for differential wheel speed exceeded you can have the ProEFI do up to four actions. I usually setup one as default to base boost, and the next to invoke the rev limiter.

If you haven't played with the fault manager then you are missing out on one of its greatest features!! That is where you can set up all of the safety features of the ProEFI. Things like setting up the check engine light, low oil pressure rev limiters or engine shut down, etc. The possibilities are really endless.
Thanks Larry, there is actually a bug in the fault manager in the latest version of the user software (2.68) so that you are unable to change any of it without getting an error. Jason confirmed this as well. There is also no fault option for differential wheel speed that I can see. This is in the "protection" tab right? I did get a fault setup for overboost and lean conditions by sending my map to Jason to fix. There are some issues on the user side with this stuff that I hope are fixed in the next release of the software, because as you said there are a lot of possibilities here that can be setup (if the software worked :( )
 

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Setting up and using both systems I can tell you the Racelogic works very well as does the ProEFI. However, what I love is the most is, the ProEFI is QUIET and also uses the OEM button, On/Off light, and Trac light. No need to look at a display. The Racelogic is like driving on the limiter and on the street attracts nothing but attention when the tires spin and the limiter hits. I can go WOT in traffic and all you hear is the light scrubbing of the tires. The other thing to note is the Racelogic allows a percentage of slip through all speeds. At low speed you might want 100% slip up to 10mph then by 25 no more than 5%. I can set the ProEFI slip based on speed.

Just sayin...
Dave,

As stated above, I have the RLTC on both of my cars. It's been on my black car for so long, I can't even recall when it was originally installed without reviewing my records. I dare say that, if the Race Logic was making noise in the process of reducing power and tire spin, it was not optimally tuned. In all my years of having the RLTC, this has never been an issue. I am unsure as to what you meant when you said there is no need to look at a display. Both of my RLTCs are inside my center consoles. There is no need to look at the display with a properly tuned system when driving in anger. The only time I have a need to look at the display is when I am changing settings or turning the system off when preparing to dyno. To me, its use could not be more transparent.

Speed-based slip percentages may be important and useful to the drag/dig racers among us, but I am not sure of its practical utility. My entry into this discussion was to take issue with the statement made that the ProEFI contains the best traction control system. I maintained then, and now, that there is no factual/evidentiary basis to make that claim. The ProEFI may have more ways to control traction (I don't know this for a fact, but that is the implication) but, at the end of the day, it's about how well any system does this, not how it does this. Portions of this discussion remind me of discussions regarding electronic boost controllers. Some have so many bells and whistles is seems the act of effectively controlling boost is lost in the discussion of all the features one EBC has relative to another.

Reid, thanks for your thoughtful, well written response. I know you will have much more in the future to report as you gain more experience and track time with the ProEFI. I look forward to your future reports.

Ken.
 

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I also have RLTC and absolutely love it best investment you can do especially in a big turbo car like yourself.


Good Luck
 

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...the ProEFI is QUIET....Racelogic is like driving on the limiter and on the street attracts nothing but attention when the tires spin and the limiter hits. I can go WOT in traffic and all you hear is the light scrubbing of the tires...
Dave,

I'm agreeing with Ken's post on these points. I've also had my RLTC for around 10 years and since it was tuned correctly right after installation, it never makes any noises at all nor does it cause the tires to make any noises. I also agree with Ken and others here that I'm really looking forward to seeing more great results with the ProEFI in both the tuning and traction control areas. My last point is that I love my Racelogic and agree it's the single best investment I've ever made in aftermarket Supra parts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
Now I'm confused between both RLTC and the ProEFI

I think one vid of someone car can help and show how it really works and help, I never saw a vid for the RLTC I've seen the ProEFI just still would like to have the best choice between them
 

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So the RLTC is a separate box that need to be wired in? I'm sure it is quite good, but the fact that I want an ECU and traction control is making me lean towards a proEFI.
Yes the RLTC is a control box with a single purpose and doesn't matter what EMS you are running.

Reid, thanks for your thoughtful, well written response. I know you will have much more in the future to report as you gain more experience and track time with the ProEFI. I look forward to your future reports.

Ken.
You're welcome Ken. How are both girls doing these days? The Sparco harness bar and Tein Flex' are treating my car very nicely. :bigok:

Now I'm confused between both RLTC and the ProEFI

I think one vid of someone car can help and show how it really works and help, I never saw a vid for the RLTC I've seen the ProEFI just still would like to have the best choice between them
RLTC is a standalone traction control system that pulls fuel by dropping injector pulse to maintain a consistent wheel speed. ProEFI is a standalone EMS that has built-in traction control features that have a number of strategies to maintain traction based on wheel speed, acceleration, RPM, etc and can pull timing, boost, and utilize a rev-limiter (fuel not pulled).

I also have RLTC and absolutely love it best investment you can do especially in a big turbo car like yourself.
My last point is that I love my Racelogic and agree it's the single best investment I've ever made in aftermarket Supra parts.
These two statements honestly don't surprise me at all. As I mentioned before, these aftermarket TC's are a HUGE benefit for both street cars and race cars alike. I don't mean to say which system is better because I haven't experienced all of the systems. I can only provide the information that I'm exposed to. Making more power is one thing, making more power get to the rear tires is a whole different story!

Reid
 

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Ken, is there any back to back data on a drag strip of the RLTC with it being on and off?
Larry, not that I know of, but the UK boys may have some data. They are big users of the RLTC. I will see if I can get one or two to stop by this thread.

Ken.
 

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I have had the RLTC for about 8 years. It is a wonderful EMS. I actually dont notice it on the street as it is a road course tool for me. Yes it cuts fuel and power I am sure. But my lap times decreased not increased by using it. I can stuff my foot in the apex of a turn and stay straight as an arrow. I do not have a LS TRD and everyone knows how the supra likes to get away from you. It has happened to me before. I have also had many spinouts on the road course, but as someone eluded in a previous post having a RLTC doesnt make you a race car dirver~!

As far as drag racing goes, I feel the RLTC is somewhat worthless. Could be user error since drag racing isnt my thing. But for under $1500 and how it can save your ass in certain conditions, it has been one of my better additons. i will say that this plaform is rather old. I am surprised it is still a viable EMS. It is a simple unit I am sure. Not like the ones that were outlawed some years ago during the Senna days.

Stu
 

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Hey Ken! Regarding my comment on noise. As I am sure you know, the RLTC interrupts the injector to reduce power. As a result, its similar to a two step or antilag when the system activates to reduce power. Granted you typically will cut ignition on antilag to keep the fuel in the exhaust to keep the turbo lit and use cut fuel on a rev limiter but either way I don't know of any rev limiter that isn't quiet. If you don't have excessive wheelspin and it only has to tap out a few cylinders, yes its quiet. Well at least not as loud as an open wastegate and sewer pipe exhaust.

However, try driving Ryan's car sometime (before the ProEFI goes in!) and see how quiet his car is when you really jam on it and the RLTC tries to keep the tires planted. Its loud. 3.4L, ATM, T61mm, Michelin sport cups not at race temp with 3deg camber. Even at 70mph it instantly incinerates the tires like you are on ice. Cutting that many cylinders is going to be noisy. Conversely when I launch my car with all its got on the street keeping in mind it cuts 1.48 60ft times all day long at the track, and it has a VERY quiet exhaust, it just takes off without anything other than some expected tire scuffing noise. Also as a drag racer I don't like to have to spin dials on my nice aluminum controller to turn of traction control to do my burn out then fumble around to get it back on in the slip I want. I hit my OEM trac button and look for the light on the dash to know its on or off.

So my thoughts are:
Does RLTC work? Hell yeah it does.
Is there any other option if you don't have a ProEFI or a Motec? Nope don't know of any.
If you are shopping for an ECM and would rather put $1300 for RLTC into your ECM purchase is the ProEFI's included feature nice? Sure is.
Do I like the fact RLTC can recognize turns and uses all 4 wheel sensors? Yup.
Do I like the fact RLTC has multiple slip settings preprogrammed? Yup that is REALLY nice feature.
Can I ask Jason to make the ProEFI to do that because at the moment it cannot? Yeah might take some convincing but its possible.
Would I probably bang my head against the wall for a while before I can get him to do it? That is guaranteed.
Can the RLTC do its job based on rate of RPM increase, driveshaft acceleration, differential wheel speed, etc? Nope.
Can I set the RLTC to have infinitely adjustable values like 25% slip below 15mph, 15% below 30 and 5% or less at higher speeds where it really counts to have very little slip? No I cannot.
Can the RLTC allow me to I put in ANY slip curve I want using multiple methods I choose to regulate wheel spin like the ProEFI? No.
Does that allow me to be certain that under no circumstances my stock ATM trans will NOT be spinning the tires going into second gear and crap the sprag? Sure does.
Is that important to me? You better believe it is.
Am I the only one who probably cares about not raising attention to my car when I am violating multiple traffic laws? Yeah but I'm used to being different with stuff like that.
Have I used the Motec? No but I'm quite sure it works like the ProEFI and is bad ass but I also will bet I can buy a shit load of rear tires with what it will cost to have it.

Bottom line they both work. If you have a finished and already set up car the RLTC will get the job done no question. If you still need and ECM or really like having multiple options regarding how you set up and tune your car, I'd take the money for the RLTC and put it towards a damn good engine control like the ProEFI.

I tune a stroked T74 car with both a ProEFI and RLTC. I plan to set up the ProEFI and activate it and see if I switch between the 2 system if there is any noticeable difference. I'll let you guys know.
 
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