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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone,

As far as I know this hasn't been done before and its something I am exploring recently.

I live in the UK where E85 is none existent and a gallon of 100% ethanol cost around $10-12 (converted to US Dollars) which isn't very practical to run the car on E85 all the time. I run a 6870 on a fully built engine and ideally want the ability to run maximum power at any given moment which is where I thought about doing the following

  • Hypertune manifold with 12 injectors
  • 6 x ID1000 injectors on pump fuel
  • 6 x ID1700 injectors on a completely separate fuel system running 100% methanol
  • Radium fuel cell for Methanol

With the setup above I can still cruise around on pump fuel without wasting any Methanol/Ethanol and on boost, the secondary injectors kick in to boost octane quite significantly along with additional cooling from alcohol fuels. Allowing me to run maximum power at any given moment without worrying about no ethanol in gas tank.

Unlike Water/Meth injection I can fine-tune fueling via ECU.

Does anyone foresee any major challenges I happened to have missed?
 

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I know of a few different guys in the rotary community who use 100% methanol with success. I know 100% methanol is very harsh on pumps, injectors, lines, etc., but if they are all methanol rated, I don't see why it wouldn't work. It would need a lot of trail and error to get everything working well.
 

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If you are running 100% methanol for street use
1. You will need to shorten the oil change intervals considerably.
2. need to add cylinder lubrication as methanol is great at stripping oils away.
3. you need 60% more flow for a given power number. In other words, mechanical pump. I dont know of many electrical pumps that are rated for continuous use on methanol. Most require that after each run, that gasoline be used to relube the fuel system.
4. Methanol will corrode bare aluminum. If it is hard anodized, you are good.
5. Lines, stainless steel or PTFE. Mild steel will corrode.
6. Make sure you have a methanol compatible filter as it WILL clean out the system thoroughly.
 

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I've seen similar dual injector, dual-separate-fuel-system setups done back in the day. Mostly with pump gas on the 'normal' fuel system and the additional one for a race fuel like VP C16.

For the sake of smooth idle and low load performance, you'll want the pump gas to run off of the original injector position and use the auxillary/secondary position in each runner for the Methanol.

The biggest issue with those older systems was response time & tuning them well. Older ECU's struggled with this and I think the only one that was really successful basically had it tuned for pump-only on straight wastegate spring (around 1.1 bar IIRC) and race gas was starting at anything above that.

Given your plan, so long as you have a modern ECU that's capable of running 12 injectors in two separately mapped sets of 6, along with a free output to act as a FP relay trigger for the methanol pump, it shouldn't be an issue.
It'll take some work to tune the fueling 'overlap' between the two systems, and I'd be concerned about any delivery 'lag' from the fuel pump needing to be activated. In which case I think I'd try to trigger the pump activation slightly before the earliest possible injector opening.
If you have an ECU with good knock sensor feedback, all the better.


But I'd definitely worry about the corrosion/storage issues of methanol and make sure the right materials/hardware was used in all of that. A fire suppression system would also be a very good idea with 100% methanol in a separate tank in the hatch.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I run a Syvecs S7 Plus ECU which is equivalent if not superior to a Motec so no issues in getting the tune on point between the primary and secondary fuel injector transition.

It's worth noting I will still run pump fuel whilst methanol is also being injected. I don't know the exact ratio without testing but something like 30% and 70% pump fuel and methanol respectively.
Fully aware that I will need to inject a lot more methanol than gasoline or E85 for that matter to generate the same power. 1000CC pump fuel with 1700cc methanol should be more than enough for at least 1000rwhp. Regarding triggering the fuel pump to switch on, I will likely be conservative and have the methanol pump activate at 0PSI. Therefore on long highway cruises that will likely be in vacuum the pump is off and switches on well in advance of when it's actually needed i.e. 10+ PSI to avoid any fuel starvation issues.

Regarding cylinder lubrication, I can't see this being an issue when the car will run on pump fuel the majority of the time and only ever see a pump and methanol mix on boost.

Lastly, fuel tank I was thinking of a motorsport grade Radium fuel cell along with PTFE and everything fully methanol compatible to avoid any issues with corrosion.
 

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I'm all for quirky ideas but this seems like a weird way around a problem, that isn't really that much of a problem. If cost and practicality as the main motivators here, then I can't see why you would want to go down this route.

Ethanol is expensive in the UK, I'll agree. But 20 litres of methanol will still set you back £30-40 for any old shit off eBay, or £50-60 for a race methanol that comes with power additvies and lube already. Prices for ethanol are within a few £ per litre as methanol.

So for every 20 litres you buy, you have a max saving of £10-£20 per barrel compared to something like C85 or Renegade E85. Let's say you buy 200 litres, you saved £200, Great.

Now you can take that £200 saving and dump it into the £5000+ fuel system you will need to run methanol. Plus a fire hazard system, plus a way of sealing yourself off from a pure meth fuel tank. Dealing and running pure meth is not a joke. The maintenance alone is enough to usually on make it worthwhile for a racecar. Not to mention that now you added extra weight and complexity just to do 1000whp.

My advice would be stick a flex sensor on your setup, run e85 when you need it and enjoy a simple life without meth haha.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think you are missing the point, driving 100 miles without boosting with E85 will consume E85. Driving 100 miles without boosting with this setup will consume no methanol. So can't really compare the two side by side in terms of consumption.

I am looking for more practicality than overall costs, along with running something fairly unique, having the ability to go on a long journey without having to carry barrels of ethanol in the back. Cost wise isn't too much of an issue, I already plan to get a hypertune manifold and already have the injectors so its more deciding whether to follow this route and get a 12 injector manifold or stick with e85 and run 6 injectors.

All advice is welcomed, I really want to understand the maintenance side of running 100% methanol and any problems I may encounter with this setup. From what I can see its just the fuel pump that will require frequent maintenance, aside from that everything else should be fine. Right?
 

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Is race gas available to you? If so, substituting C-16 leaded race gas instead of methanol could make things a lot easier as far as corrosion, flammability, and fuel pump capacity required.

Al
 

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1000CC pump fuel with 1700cc methanol
Big NOPE! Fuel pumps are not rated on cc/min. They are either lbs/hour, gallons/hour or liter/hour.

Aeromotives own 5.0 gpm brushless fuel pump (19Lpm) can only support 910 flywheel horse power on methanol to the tune of $1500 USD. there goes the cost saving in this one part alone.

As @Mike2JZ said, long term it is more cost effective to go e85 regardless of price delta as you will not cut even on 5k fuel system.
 

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I think you are missing the point, driving 100 miles without boosting with E85 will consume E85. Driving 100 miles without boosting with this setup will consume no methanol. So can't really compare the two side by side in terms of consumption.

I am looking for more practicality than overall costs, along with running something fairly unique, having the ability to go on a long journey without having to carry barrels of ethanol in the back. Cost wise isn't too much of an issue, I already plan to get a hypertune manifold and already have the injectors so its more deciding whether to follow this route and get a 12 injector manifold or stick with e85 and run 6 injectors.

All advice is welcomed, I really want to understand the maintenance side of running 100% methanol and any problems I may encounter with this setup. From what I can see its just the fuel pump that will require frequent maintenance, aside from that everything else should be fine. Right?
Yes you can. Dollar for dollar is what you are comparing but you are only comparing the fuels, not the cost associated with the ENTIRE system to do that.
point blank, fire suppression system, firewalls to isolate methanol fuel. Check valves, vents. The last thing you want is to cut corners around methanol.

Do the math, how much e85 will take to equal the £5000 investment of parts alone (labor is never free but people believe it is)?
and guess what, with e85 and the syvec, you can literally program limits based on the E% that you cannot do on the methanol.
relying on oneself to "remember" is how engines get destroyed. A computer will not deviate from what you tell it unless it was programmed incorrectly
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Is race gas available to you? If so, substituting C-16 leaded race gas instead of methanol could make things a lot easier as far as corrosion, flammability, and fuel pump capacity required.

Al
That's actually a not bad idea and never thought of that, being too focused on methanol/ethanol. I can get Renegade TS109 quite easily which is 104 octane / R+M/2 (Anti-knock index).
That should in theory be able to achieve what I am looking for without worrying about extremely large injectors and fuel pumps being corroded from methanol
 

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I think you are missing the point, driving 100 miles without boosting with E85 will consume E85. Driving 100 miles without boosting with this setup will consume no methanol. So can't really compare the two side by side in terms of consumption.

I am looking for more practicality than overall costs, along with running something fairly unique, having the ability to go on a long journey without having to carry barrels of ethanol in the back. Cost wise isn't too much of an issue, I already plan to get a hypertune manifold and already have the injectors so its more deciding whether to follow this route and get a 12 injector manifold or stick with e85 and run 6 injectors.

All advice is welcomed, I really want to understand the maintenance side of running 100% methanol and any problems I may encounter with this setup. From what I can see its just the fuel pump that will require frequent maintenance, aside from that everything else should be fine. Right?
I understand that logic, but still not super practical really. If you are adamant on two fuel system, just run E85 in your second tank, not meth, will be much easier to run and support in that regard.
 

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They already pay $10 a gallon for fuel in Europe, I can't imagine what their race gas costs :ROFLMAO:
 

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C16 is €35,5 a gallon excl. shipping to you front door ;)
 

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A few points here:

1. Surprised no one has mentioned this yet. But given my limited understanding of pure methanol tuning, I know it's very different from Ethanol. Considering I don't know any 2JZ cars running pure meth(we have a lot of 2JZ cars in Texas), finding a tuner with a large amount of XP with meth, 2JZ, and willing to closely & persistently work with you to iron out bugs will probably be very difficult & expensive.

2. Strongly consider running pure ethanol in the secondary tank(Ignite E98, OneEthanol, etc). This will allow you to scale boost seamlessly based on the Ethanol% in your feed/return line. Nearly all modern day, 100% closed loop ECUs work this way. Your tuner can setup the Eth pump to turn on above a desired load value. Then the boost will scale according to the Eth% from the flex sensor in your feed line. With this way you'll almost certainly deal with less headache, less maintenance, more tuner & platform support.

3. Good luck making 1000whp+ with that PTE6870. I've tried, got close, and killed my brand new turbo by overspinning it and seizing the cartridge, within 20 pulls. That turbo isn't meant to make 1000whp with a 2JZ.
 

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Forgive me, my ignorance is gonna show here a bit, but isn't that going to be rather difficult to pass an MOT exam with a container of rather explosive liquid sitting in the hatch? I replaced the stock tank on my Mk3 with a fuel cell because the original tank was a bit far too rusty for my taste, after cleaning, and, well... it's a lot of work, and the downside is that your trunk is a LOT less useful, due to the unique shape of the stock fuel tanks on those cars. I really can't recommend that approach.

My other thought is... what are you hoping for in fuel capacity for this secondary fuel system? I briefly looked into the methanol idea for my car, but uh... 3-5 mpg really didn't seem too appealing. No idea what that is in km/l, sorry. It's not good, at all, that's a fair comparison haha. Also, there's the whole thing that if something goes wrong, even small things... methanol burns HOT. Oh, and it burns invisible too. Last thing you want is to be running around looking like Ricky Bobby when you're actually on fire and nobody can tell. Screaming "help me Tom Cruise!" probably isn't very funny in real life. :p

My last thought... if you're shooting for 1000 hp+, rather than spend a silly amount of money on a secondary fuel system, why not put it into something like a G42-1200?
 

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Applauds for the idea and starting the discussion, but for reasons already stated in the above, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages in my book. I'd be more inclined to run a direct port Meth injection system, upgrade your turbo to at least the size of a gen 1 or gen2 Precision 7675 or G42-1200 and let your tuner work their magic to meet your goals.

Have a yarn with this mob and get their opinion as its what they do .... Methanol Injection : Alcohol Injection : Water Injection : CoolingMist

Best of luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Applauds for the idea and starting the discussion, but for reasons already stated in the above, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages in my book. I'd be more inclined to run a direct port Meth injection system, upgrade your turbo to at least the size of a gen 1 or gen2 Precision 7675 or G42-1200 and let your tuner work their magic to meet your goals.

Have a yarn with this mob and get their opinion as its what they do .... Methanol Injection : Alcohol Injection : Water Injection : CoolingMist

Best of luck
That's actually what I ended up doing thanks to everyone's comments here.

I abandoned the idea of running straight meth via secondary injectors and bought a Snow Performance ProLine water meth kit with all braided lines for a bit of extra safety against leaks. Unlike most water/meth kits I have chosen not to use a controller and have my ECU PWM control the pump, along with a few other safeties via the ECU such as car goes into limp mode (max 3K RPM) if it runs lean on boost in an unlikely event that the pump doesn't kick in for whatever reason I do not keep boosting it.
 
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