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Sooooooo JDM
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RZA36 said:
http://www.powerhouseracing.com/supratt_mapecu.shtml

Anybody seen or used this product? Looks pretty intersting, almost an AEM for the people on a budget. Looks like a pretty good deal for $900. Any feedback?
I've never used it, but without any provisions for ignition adjustment it looks to be a waste of money. If someone wants end user programmability via a laptop, why not just go with the AEM for another $300 or so? Not only does it do about a million more things than this unit, there is a good sized user base and excellent tech support from a reputable company (who's obviously not fly by night).

Ryan
 

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D-Bag
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well PHR is definitely a reputabel company and is not by any means fly by not. Sure I would love to get the aem but add on the other things it is not just $300. After buying all the sensors and everything you're spending almost $700 more than this unit.
 

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The PHR MAP ECU looks quite promising. It replaces both the VPC and GCC, so it's a self contained unit.

And a AEM is not $1200. To have an AEM, it will cost you:

AEM EMS - $1300
AEM 3.5 bar Map Sensor -$125
GM IAT Sensor & Connector - $55
AEM UEGO Kit, Single Channel - $360 (optional, but I wouldn't run an AEM without one) + a display fo some sort
AEM CDI- $300
Tuning $????

Total - $2140 + tuning.

The AEM is definately not the most cost effective ruite.
 

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Sooooooo JDM
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RZA36 said:
Well PHR is definitely a reputabel company and is not by any means fly by not. Sure I would love to get the aem but add on the other things it is not just $300. After buying all the sensors and everything you're spending almost $700 more than this unit.
If you read the details, PHR DOES NOT make the unit:

Quote, "North American distributor of the MAP ECU (Manifold Absolute Pressure Electronic Control Unit)"

I never said PHR was fly by night. You'll still need a wideband, there is simply no way to properly tune without one.

Ryan
 

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Greg Bielawski said:
The PHR MAP ECU looks quite promising. It replaces both the VPC and GCC, so it's a self contained unit.

And a AEM is not $1200. To have an AEM, it will cost you:

AEM EMS - $1300
AEM 3.5 bar Map Sensor -$125
GM IAT Sensor & Connector - $55
AEM UEGO Kit, Single Channel - $360 (optional, but I wouldn't run an AEM without one) + a display fo some sort
AEM CDI- $300
Tuning $????

Total - $2140 + tuning.

The AEM is definately not the most cost effective ruite.
Look around, shop wisely....Here's what I paid:

AEM EMS - $1000 (You might actually have to step away from the computer to get a price like this)

AEM 5 Bar Map - $62 ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46098&item=2424611132 )

GM IAT - $5 at ANY local junkyard with harness. They are on every POS GM Domestic produced in the last 18 years. I actually got 3 just in case one was bad. Very easy to Calibrate.

AEM UEGO - Don't need. Any *good* wideband will work and you would need one with the aformentioned piggyback. Display? It's called a laptop or a an FJO in my case.

AEM CDI - Not required. I don't have one. If you are pushing any kind of horsepower down the road you will need something. Be it DLI, LS1 coils, MSD, ETC. Well, except in the case of a piggyback where you are stuck with DLI as your only alternative.

Tuning - Don't be a pussy and tune it yourself. Why does everyone think this is *Necessary* to have an AEM tuned by an external source. Why have a standalone or Psedu-standalone that can be tuned with a laptop? I'll be dynoing mid November on a map of my own doing, we'll see how she does.

So I'm @ $1067, realistically, as a non sponsored, private individual. That's almost half of you're quote. Sure a wideband has to be factored in, but like I said, one would be foolish to tune either system without one.


Ryan
 
G

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Well i know people who have aem and it was a considerable amount more money the $300.00 more than the PHR ECU and I for one would never put shit on my car that came off of cars in the junk yard i can not understand how you have money for the aem and then goto junk yard for little shit like a sensor?

As for being a pussy and not tuning it yourself, I would put money on it that if you had 2 equal cars ( same turbo, fuel,ecu,trans, ect..) that the pussys car would perform much much better than a car tuned by a amature. Its all in the tunning with these cars. I can not understand why someone would spend money to do a full single and fuel and not spend another $1k-$1500 on tunning?

The PHR ECU will most likely be cheaper to tune for people on a tight budget like myself.

I also doubt you will have the little stupid problems like you do with the AEM like cold weather starts, and idle. Yes i know that these problems can be solved with a little more fine tunning but it seems like the PHR is a nice unit for daily street cars who are not making insane power or hardcore racers.

just my thoughts
 

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redmkivtt said:
Well i know people who have aem and it was a considerable amount more money the $300.00 more than the PHR ECU and I for one would never put shit on my car that came off of cars in the junk yard i can not understand how you have money for the aem and then goto junk yard for little shit like a sensor?
It's an Intake Air Temperature sensor. We're not talking about something like a MAP sensor here. These are probably the most reliable sensor you will find. They generate a voltage by a corresponding change in resistance. This is not a sensor that just spontaneously fails. But what would I know?


redmkivtt said:
As for being a pussy and not tuning it yourself, I would put money on it that if you had 2 equal cars ( same turbo, fuel,ecu,trans, ect..) that the pussys car would perform much much better than a car tuned by a amature. Its all in the tunning with these cars. I can not understand why someone would spend money to do a full single and fuel and not spend another $1k-$1500 on tunning?
Have you ever tuned the AEM? I have and do on a regular basis. How exactly does one get elevated from amateur status? Do you think that becoming "good" at tuning comes as an epiphany in your sleep? Do you think that only good tuners have "graduated" from an established school of engine management? If that's the case, I can name off about 5 or 6 people that shouldn't be tuning right now. However, that being the case then people like the ones you mentioned above shouldn't be paying them $1K to $1500 for tuning either.

redmkivtt said:

The PHR ECU will most likely be cheaper to tune for people on a tight budget like myself.

If that's all the control you want, why not even go the cheaper route and buy an Emanage? Please break down what this device can do that other cheaper solutions can't?

redmkivtt said:

I also doubt you will have the little stupid problems like you do with the AEM like cold weather starts, and idle. Yes i know that these problems can be solved with a little more fine tunning but it seems like the PHR is a nice unit for daily street cars who are not making insane power or hardcore racers.

just my thoughts
Please elaborate on the cold Weather start and idle problems. Ever since version 1.0, idle tuning with the AEM takes a grand total of 30 minutes in your driveway. Cold weather? Hmm...can you set up a table on an X-Y axis? My car starts quicker now than it did with the OEM ECU in all sorts of weather. Have you even looked into an EMS or are you just another on of those people going off the here say of others?
I'm not sure where the line gets drawn on insane power, but many people have made decent power, 400+hp, on just a stock ecu with stock fuel, ETC @ BPU levels. If someone is going single though, I've tried the piggybacks and now the EMS. The EMS wins hands down for driveability. I can't speak for the Haltech or any of the other stand alones, but I'm sure they each have their merits.

What it boils down to is this: People in this community, with some exception, are inherently lazy or lackadaisical when it comes to tuning their own car. They would just as soon pay someone else rather than sit down with a couple good books, the manual, and the software to figure it out (Not to mention the wealth of information on the AEM board). I'm sorry if I offended with the term "pussy" but the lack of concern or interest just isn't there for teh most part. I know from my experience, that the piggybacks would not give me consistency day in and day out. This isn't just a Supra issue. Fortunately, for most, the 2JZ is stout enough to deal with the occasional leaning out and subsequent detonation that occurs with the piggybacks. You can show me dyno charts all day with great A/F's on them but I can also show you logs from a highway pull in fourth, same settings as the dyno, that show extremely dangerous conditions. Learn your car, tune your car and know your car and you will be rewarded. Leave it to someone else and it's your gamble. Hey, it's only money, right?

Ryan
 

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I'd like for you to elaborate, name 5 or 6 ppl that shouldn't be tuning please.
Peter

Ryan23 said:
Do you think that only good tuners have "graduated" from an established school of engine management? If that's the case, I can name off about 5 or 6 people that shouldn't be tuning right now.

Ryan
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
V8 Killer said:
E-manage doesn't do the single most important thing a VPC does - speed density conversion.

Regards,

Dusty
Thats the main reason I like the PHR Map ecu.
I would love to get the AEM but I don't have enough $$. I am not comfortable with tuning my own car. I don't want to make a $3000 mistake and hav emy shortblock or something go bad. The MAP ECu seems like a good idea for those who are looking for power on a budget and are "novices" when it comes to tuning a/f ratios and what not.
Dusty, does anyone have this unit yet or are you and PHR testing rigth now? Please keep us updated on how it performs. Maybe some before and after results of say a small single or bpu car?
 

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Re: Re: PHR Map ECU?? VPC replacement

Ryan23 said:
I've never used it, but without any provisions for ignition adjustment it looks to be a waste of money. If someone wants end user programmability via a laptop, why not just go with the AEM for another $300 or so? Not only does it do about a million more things than this unit, there is a good sized user base and excellent tech support from a reputable company (who's obviously not fly by night).

Ryan

The VPC doesn't do ignition adjustment either. This ECU is a piggyback, not a replacement. I'm not sure why you think ignition adjustment is necessary in the least for the average single turbo (much less stock twin) Supra. VPC's have been proven to safely make 700, 800, 900, and I've personally seen over 1000rwhp.

The VPC:
Discontinued 18 months ago making them nearly impossible to find today in *good* condition, believe me I know.
Needs another piggyback: preferably the GCC with an MSRP of $590 and street price of around $500. Even used its $300-$400. If you're on a budget you can get an AFC for $350ish or an AFR for $230ish new.
VPC does not do Nitrous control.
VPC does not do allow any additional functions like turning on an additional fuel pump at X boost or RPM.
VPC does not log air/fuel ratios or anything else.

You do not need a FJO/UEGO for the PHR ECU any more than you need it for the VPC. I highly recommend a personal WBO2 to customers going with a new ECU like the AEM b\c an AEM removes all the safety measures of a stock ECU. VPC users generally do not need a personal WBO2 any more than an AFC user needs a personal WBO2. This PHR ECU will be the same way...take it to your local shop, have your car WBO2 dyno tuned, and you're done. If you still want a personal WBO2 its certainly not a bad idea, but its no where near as critical as with an AEM.

The PHR ECU will not need a Twin Power DLI or AEM CDI any sooner than the VPC/GCC users have needed one. I personally made over 800rwhp on a VPC/GCC as recent as this time last year in front of about 80 people...on stock ignition of course.

I don't see the PHR ECU as a replacement for the AEM. It is intended to be a cheaper & better replacement for the VPC/GCC. Half the people I talk to that "want an AEM" don't even know why they want an AEM. The AEM may be a great unit and offer a lot of features for its price, but so does this PHR ECU. They aren't in the same league for features, nor are they in the same league for price. And last time I checked PHR is a rather reputable company themselves. Since they've been working on Supra Twin Turbos longer than 99.9% of us here have owned them, I'd say they know their stuff and aren't going anywhere.

The *fact* is that most people spend $2,000 or more to get everything needed to tune an AEM properly, and then that doesn't include installation and tuning. There are of course some people like Ryan23 on this board that can do their own AEM tuning...but Ryan you are the exception not the rule. Most reputable shops I know of charge *at least* $500 to tune an AEM and I've heard of people paying way more than that.

Like the AEM this PHR ECU will be perfect for some and wrong for others I'm sure. Regardless I think its a great price for a quality unit, I've seen it work on 4 cars (3 different types of cars) over the last ~3 months and I'm very happy PHR has taken the time to bring us a quality product for a such a reasonable price.

Regards,

Dusty
 

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Ryan23 said:
Look around, shop wisely....Here's what I paid:

AEM EMS - $1000 (You might actually have to step away from the computer to get a price like this)

AEM 5 Bar Map - $62 ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46098&item=2424611132 )

GM IAT - $5 at ANY local junkyard with harness. They are on every POS GM Domestic produced in the last 18 years. I actually got 3 just in case one was bad. Very easy to Calibrate.

AEM UEGO - Don't need. Any *good* wideband will work and you would need one with the aformentioned piggyback. Display? It's called a laptop or a an FJO in my case.

AEM CDI - Not required. I don't have one. If you are pushing any kind of horsepower down the road you will need something. Be it DLI, LS1 coils, MSD, ETC. Well, except in the case of a piggyback where you are stuck with DLI as your only alternative.

Tuning - Don't be a pussy and tune it yourself. Why does everyone think this is *Necessary* to have an AEM tuned by an external source. Why have a standalone or Psedu-standalone that can be tuned with a laptop? I'll be dynoing mid November on a map of my own doing, we'll see how she does.

So I'm @ $1067, realistically, as a non sponsored, private individual. That's almost half of you're quote. Sure a wideband has to be factored in, but like I said, one would be foolish to tune either system without one.

Ryan
I would never get an sensor from a junkyard. I'm sure you can find some great stuff there, but that's just not how I do things.

If I'm not mistaken, the AEM UEGO is on of the cheapest widebands around. While I agree that any piggy back could benefit to have a wideband 02, I still think it's an option. Where as with an AEM, I think it's a necessity since there are a lot more things that can go wrong. Don't forget, the stock ECU has tons of safety features programmed into it. I don't like the idea of hauling a laptop with me everywhere I go, so I'd definately invest in an FJO display or something similar.

I also wouldn't run the AEM without some sort of igition management. You *can* do this from what I've heard, but the car will probably run like crap and you'll be giving up horsepower. If I'm going to an EMS, I'm going to do it right. With piggy-back, you don't need an igition device, since you should be fine as long as your stock coils are in good condition.

As for tuning, first of all, does it occur to you that some people simply have no tuning experience? I know that everyone has to start somewhere, but I'm willing to bet all the pros out there started with simple piggy back units and moved up from there. I really don't think someone without any tuning experience has business tuning a full EMS system. Those shortblocks are expensive to replace. Also, call me a pussy if you want, but if I'm spending money on a single turbo, fuel system, AEM, etc, etc, etc, then I'm going to pay somebody like Sean @ TQF.com to make my car perfect.

Remember, a lot of people aren't really looking for a full EMS, and they only bought the AEM because the VPC was no longer available and it was their only alternative. I'm glad we now have another one. I, for one, am looking for something that is more set and forget, and really don't want to go to a full EMS just yet.
 
G

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In my case I would need to buy a laptop and change the ignition over in order to go AEM. I estimate a conservative $3K to go AEM, and yes, I would have an expert tune it or show me how the first time.

Money isn't the issue, if I thought going from VPC/SFC to AEM would give me some worthwhile benefits, I wouldn't hesitate. I use a FJO and road tune in openeloop. My car starts coming of stoich around 3.5krpm, is around 12.5 at just over 4krpm, and maintains a 11.4:1 - 11.7:1 from 4.5krpm to redline. Sure, if I was a road or drag racer, the fine tuning and other options would help. I just use my car as a 700hp+ grocery getter.

And I would HIGHLY recommend a WBO2 for any modified car. To take the car to a dyno, tune it, and trust it not to vary would be VERY naive. I have seen my car vary significantly due to crappy gas, higher octane gas, environmental conditions, boost levels, etc...

This really looks like a nice alternative for the not-so-serious high HP enthusiast. I glad someone stepped up and designed this thing. I'm sure there will be a lot of people interested.
 

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V8 Killer said:
The VPC doesn't do ignition adjustment either. This ECU is a piggyback, not a replacement. I'm not sure why you think ignition adjustment is necessary in the least for the average single turbo (much less stock twin) Supra. VPC's have been proven to safely make 700, 800, 900, and I've personally seen over 1000rwhp.

The VPC:
Discontinued 18 months ago making them nearly impossible to find today in *good* condition, believe me I know.
Needs another piggyback: preferably the GCC with an MSRP of $590 and street price of around $500. Even used its $300-$400. If you're on a budget you can get an AFC for $350ish or an AFR for $230ish new.
VPC does not do Nitrous control.
VPC does not do allow any additional functions like turning on an additional fuel pump at X boost or RPM.
VPC does not log air/fuel ratios or anything else.

You do not need a FJO/UEGO for the PHR ECU any more than you need it for the VPC. I highly recommend a personal WBO2 to customers going with a new ECU like the AEM b\c an AEM removes all the safety measures of a stock ECU. VPC users generally do not need a personal WBO2 any more than an AFC user needs a personal WBO2. This PHR ECU will be the same way...take it to your local shop, have your car WBO2 dyno tuned, and you're done. If you still want a personal WBO2 its certainly not a bad idea, but its no where near as critical as with an AEM.

The PHR ECU will not need a Twin Power DLI or AEM CDI any sooner than the VPC/GCC users have needed one. I personally made over 800rwhp on a VPC/GCC as recent as this time last year in front of about 80 people...on stock ignition of course.

I don't see the PHR ECU as a replacement for the AEM. It is intended to be a cheaper & better replacement for the VPC/GCC. Half the people I talk to that "want an AEM" don't even know why they want an AEM. The AEM may be a great unit and offer a lot of features for its price, but so does this PHR ECU. They aren't in the same league for features, nor are they in the same league for price. And last time I checked PHR is a rather reputable company themselves. Since they've been working on Supra Twin Turbos longer than 99.9% of us here have owned them, I'd say they know their stuff and aren't going anywhere.

The *fact* is that most people spend $2,000 or more to get everything needed to tune an AEM properly, and then that doesn't include installation and tuning. There are of course some people like Ryan23 on this board that can do their own AEM tuning...but Ryan you are the exception not the rule. Most reputable shops I know of charge *at least* $500 to tune an AEM and I've heard of people paying way more than that.

Like the AEM this PHR ECU will be perfect for some and wrong for others I'm sure. Regardless I think its a great price for a quality unit, I've seen it work on 4 cars (3 different types of cars) over the last ~3 months and I'm very happy PHR has taken the time to bring us a quality product for a such a reasonable price.

Regards,

Dusty

Well said Dusty. Guys, the MAP ECU was not designed to replace an AEM or other stand-alone systems. It was designed as a replacement for the very popular HKS VPC/GCC combo that is now discontinued. The VPC setup supported well over 800 RWHP on many cars and allowed you to keep the reliability of the stock ECU. Some people, most people in my opinion, dont need the adjustability of an AEM to support their setups. Especially when those people dont even understand the effects of changing ignition timing tables and fuel maps. The MAP ECU works well in basic single turbo setups and BPU cars, and can get you up and running in a matter of a couple hours time. So, it may not be for everyone, and this is by no means an attack on the AEM EMS, but for those who miss the reliability of the VPC its a perfect replacement.

Jarrett H.
 

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Ryan23 said:

Tuning - Don't be a pussy and tune it yourself. Why does everyone think this is *Necessary* to have an AEM tuned by an external source. Why have a standalone or Psedu-standalone that can be tuned with a laptop? I'll be dynoing mid November on a map of my own doing, we'll see how she does.
thats probably one of the most ignorant staments ive seen...i dont think not tuning your car yourself has anything to do with being a "pussy"..not everyone has the time or ability to learn how to properly tune a standalone...i tuned my old car myself with an afc/vpc combo but when my friend got AEM on his car i didnt even really know where to start..between him and i we got everything set up on it so his car would start and run well, but then it went strait to the dyno where a good tuner with experience took over...to each his own though, if you can tune your own car more power to you...for us "pussies" that understand tuning a full standalone to maximum potential, ide stick with a good tuner
 

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First off, let me clarify a few things. I NEVER said PHR was not a reputable company. Nor did I say they were fly by night. However, as I indicated above, that some people glossed over...it looks like PHR IS JUST THE SUPPLIER, NOT THE MANUFACTURER. How long has the "Map ECU" been around? Has anyone ever heard of them?

2.) Good point on the E-manage. I was under the impression that you ditched the MAF with it. I was wrong

3.) Peter- Read the my reply, there was a note of sarcasm there. For example, Justin Nenni is probably one of the best AEM tuners I know and he didn't attend the AEM "tuning school". My point (as sarcastically as it sounded) was that there are people who are great tuners that started out tuning on their own, with no formal training so to speak.

4.) Dusty, I'm aware the VPC doesn't allow ignition adjustment. I was an alphabet soup kind of guy before I went AEM. I'm kind of lost on your question of why ignition adjustment is necessary though. Sure, if you slap a big enough turbo on anything you can make good power. It's not optimized though. How do you account for race gas? Stock MKIV timing curve? I have seen tremendous power gains on all cars with some good old fashioned advancement of timing (on race gas).

5.) Greg - wideband 02 isn't technically required, but anything that fools with A/F of an engine *should* necessitate one. OEM Safety measures or not, you lean it out enough and I assure you it will go BOOM. It will feel great though right before it does ;) . An ignition box is necessary for anything over 1 bar with the EMS. For the beginner, that will give you plenty of time to save up for one while you tune. Set and forget type, yeah, you probably are not the target market. I guess I sometimes get caught up and think everyone should be intimately involved with their car.

6.) Gritsak - I already apologized if the term "pussy" offends. If you don't have the time to mess with it, then "No", an EMS is not for you.


My whole point guys, before the Flame Cannon got turned on me, is that there is nothing in the EMS software that is "Black Magic" or Voodoo. I would venture that over half of the people who badmouth or just plain think it's too difficult have never even downloaded the software to even look at it. Everything (All functions) are documented to some degree, online and offline. Hell, they even throw in a 4 Meg Acrobat file on EFI basics! The Pussy comment was said because it would seem that most people are too scared to attempt to tune. OK, poor choice of words. I neglected to address the people who simply don't want to tune and for that, there are other, simpler options. However, NO ONE ON THIS PLANET WILL CONVINCE ME THAT ANY PIGGYBACK UNIT IS SAFER.

1.) I can dial in my very own knock noise table and have the EMS add fuel, pull timing or do whatever in the event of detonation. I can tailor it to MY CAR. When single turbos, External wastegates dumping to atmosphere, the occasional exhaust leak and other noises get generated by your car, Knocknoise needs to be tailored. No two Supras are alike in this respect (unless we're talking stock, for that I have no data)

2.) I can Add Tons of Fuel and pull Crazy timing in the event I pop a hose off a wastegate or a Boost solenoid fails, whatever. This WILL save an engine when it's just putting around on pump gas. Most people are running a Boost Cut Controller on their Supras, there, you just bypassed one safeguard.

3.) I can make part throttle fueling changes, open loop crossover point, WOT O2 Feedback and a number of other changes. They are all documented in the manuals.

4.) I would tune my VPC, at night (cooler), and get a perfect WOT A/F curve. The next day, during the day, A/F would be about 1~1.5 points leaner based on the readout of my FJO (which has been bounced against a dyno's more expensive wideband). If I did the opposite, A/F would swing the other way. There was just no consistency. Now, with the EMS, there is. So let me step off my soapbox, I just think more people out there should work on their own car's I guess. Maybe it's a bit too idealistic, but if more people did it (and conferred the results to one another) the better we would all get at tuning.


Ryan
 

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have seen tremendous power gains on all cars with some good old fashioned advancement of timing (on race gas)
My stock ecu/vpc/safc car sees 23 degrees of timing at WOT at 30psi of boost with race gas...

You're telling me that you are running more timing then that?

Too many people think they need a AEM when they dont. I'd rather lose 15rwhp and keep the safety features and ease of the stock ecu myself. Truthfully, my car is going to make more power and be more consistent then most AEM cars with similar setups becuse they arent tuned correctly..
 
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