Supra Forums banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
slowest restoration ever
Joined
·
626 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey, I had an idea. I don't have one to look at.. but wouldn't it be possible to fabricate thicker gears to go inside the oil pump, and then make a spacer to take up the extra room between the oil pump body and the cover?
If it could be done at a reasonable cost I could see people buying a kit. You'd have increased pressure across the board, not just a higher relief pressure.
Speaking of the relief, has anyone ever tried putting a stiffer spring in as opposed to shimming it? Anyone know some place to look to get one made or find one that fits off the shelf?
 

·
475RWHP 449TQ and climing
Joined
·
5,952 Posts
miekedmr said:
Hey, I had an idea. I don't have one to look at.. but wouldn't it be possible to fabricate thicker gears to go inside the oil pump, and then make a spacer to take up the extra room between the oil pump body and the cover?
If it could be done at a reasonable cost I could see people buying a kit. You'd have increased pressure across the board, not just a higher relief pressure.
Speaking of the relief, has anyone ever tried putting a stiffer spring in as opposed to shimming it? Anyone know some place to look to get one made or find one that fits off the shelf?

Why do all of this when shimming cost a couple of washers ans works for sure with no other headaches! :wtflol:
 

·
slowest restoration ever
Joined
·
626 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Sorry, I thought it was more or less self-explanitory. I guess not.

The stiffer spring idea is because I figured if you shim it has to remove some of the pumps ability to bleed off, since its reducing the travel. Don't people consider shimming wastegates to be a half-assed solution for that reason?
It might not be a problem, but I wouldn't want my seals/oil filter to blow out at 7000rpm because it can't squeeze enough oil out the relief and the pressure spiked up as a result.
There IS such a thing as too much oil pressure, even though you don't seem to think so.

As for the original idea with the bigger oil pump gears... Shimming the pump does not increase the pumps ability to pump oil. If you run a thin oil you will still have low pressure at idle, because the pumping ability just isn't there. It isn't bleeding off even without the relief valve shimmed. Bigger gears would simply pump more oil, at all rpms, not just at higher rpms where there's already an excess. You could run a relatively thin oil and still have the peace of mind of good pressure at idle.

Make sense?
 

·
Hardtop FTW
Joined
·
1,784 Posts
miekedmr said:
Sorry, I thought it was more or less self-explanitory. I guess not.

The stiffer spring idea is because I figured if you shim it has to remove some of the pumps ability to bleed off, since its reducing the travel. Don't people consider shimming wastegates to be a half-assed solution for that reason?
It might not be a problem, but I wouldn't want my seals/oil filter to blow out at 7000rpm because it can't squeeze enough oil out the relief and the pressure spiked up as a result.
There IS such a thing as too much oil pressure, even though you don't seem to think so.

As for the original idea with the bigger oil pump gears... Shimming the pump does not increase the pumps ability to pump oil. If you run a thin oil you will still have low pressure at idle, because the pumping ability just isn't there. It isn't bleeding off even without the relief valve shimmed. Bigger gears would simply pump more oil, at all rpms, not just at higher rpms where there's already an excess. You could run a relatively thin oil and still have the peace of mind of good pressure at idle.

Make sense?
This makes perfect sense to me, and I would most likely buy a kit should there be a well tested one available.

Collin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,555 Posts
^^ same here
makes it easier for people who don't want to remove the engine to shim a oil pump for more pressure.

Also, there were a couple of people who had their oil pulley collapse recently, so maybe this would benefit them as well
 

·
475RWHP 449TQ and climing
Joined
·
5,952 Posts
miekedmr said:
Sorry, I thought it was more or less self-explanitory. I guess not.

The stiffer spring idea is because I figured if you shim it has to remove some of the pumps ability to bleed off, since its reducing the travel. Don't people consider shimming wastegates to be a half-assed solution for that reason?
It might not be a problem, but I wouldn't want my seals/oil filter to blow out at 7000rpm because it can't squeeze enough oil out the relief and the pressure spiked up as a result.There IS such a thing as too much oil pressure, even though you don't seem to think so.
As for the original idea with the bigger oil pump gears... Shimming the pump does not increase the pumps ability to pump oil. If you run a thin oil you will still have low pressure at idle, because the pumping ability just isn't there. It isn't bleeding off even without the relief valve shimmed. Bigger gears would simply pump more oil, at all rpms, not just at higher rpms where there's already an excess. You could run a relatively thin oil and still have the peace of mind of good pressure at idle.

Make sense?

Dude wake up....I never said it does, or doesn't make sense. So don't get it twisted thinking I don't understand the gibberish you wrote. It's a lot of machining, and reengineering for something that can be done cheaper and give great results by using a few washers. The reccomended oil pressure at idle is 3-10psi so what you say about the shimming not affecting idle is moot. It's the upper rpms that higher pressure is needed anyway. The rule of thumb is 10psi for every 1000 rpms. It has been discussed among some members to have the oil pump gear re engineered to spin faster by redesigning it. Who do you know blowing out oil seals because of too much pressure in a 7m. Thats right boyz and gurlz no one, so kill the noise on that crap. That half ass solution has been working years before you got here with no problem, and I am sure will continue long after you leave. :1poke: :wtflol: :rofl:
 

·
475RWHP 449TQ and climing
Joined
·
5,952 Posts
spoolint78 said:
^^ same here
makes it easier for people who don't want to remove the engine to shim a oil pump for more pressure.Also, there were a couple of people who had their oil pulley collapse recently, so maybe this would benefit them as well

He was talking about going into the engine. and making different sized pump gears dude. You are thinking about the pump drive shaft gear. :bigthumb:
 

·
slowest restoration ever
Joined
·
626 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
QWIKSTRIKE said:
He was talking about going into the engine. and making different sized pump gears dude. You are thinking about the pump drive shaft gear. :bigthumb:
Like he said.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
583 Posts
I have looked at making longer gears before, the problem is that one of the gears is built onto the shaft that runs all the way through the pump and up to the driveshaft. My alternative to this was to take an old oil pump gear and slice it up so that you had like a 1" thick section or how ever much more you wanted then add it on to the end of the existing gears, with a housing extension of the same thickness of course. After all that work it would probably be easier to find a pump that's bigger to begin with and figure out how to make it fit.

Glen
 

·
slowest restoration ever
Joined
·
626 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
QWIKSTRIKE said:
Blah Blah Blah, I shimmed my pump and it's great. You're an idiot.
I don't know anyone who's blown out seals, and I don't know enough about it to say that shimming the pump could ever present a problem.
I posted to get a discussion going so that people who have something to offer can educate me and everyone else.
The non-assanine response from you could have gone something like...

"The problem with the thicker gear idea is that we don't really need extra pressure at idle, just higher up in the rpm band, where there is already an excess of oil going through the pump. I don't think it'd be worth the trouble for that reason. I shimmed the wastegate Xmm, and I don't have any problems with the pressure spiking at high rpms, so the relief valve must be doing it's job ok. The pressure peaks at XXpsi at XXXXrpm and stays there. I have not had any problems yet from the higher pressure."

Look at that! Amazing! Useful!
 

·
slowest restoration ever
Joined
·
626 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
supra87t3/t4 said:
I have looked at making longer gears before, the problem is that one of the gears is built onto the shaft that runs all the way through the pump and up to the driveshaft. My alternative to this was to take an old oil pump gear and slice it up so that you had like a 1" thick section or how ever much more you wanted then add it on to the end of the existing gears, with a housing extension of the same thickness of course. After all that work it would probably be easier to find a pump that's bigger to begin with and figure out how to make it fit.

Glen
Thanks, you're probobly right about fitting another pump being easier than modifying the current pump yourself. I was thinking about something mass-producable though (or at least a few dozen, rather than just a one-off thing.) If someone could get thicker gears and a housing extension made in enough quantity, it would be cheaper than a whole pump and could be installed without modifying anything else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
393 Posts
Yeah, Qwik definatly will tell it like it is, no bullsheet. Many times that is what is needed... but often a bit harsh for most people.:sadance:
 

·
475RWHP 449TQ and climing
Joined
·
5,952 Posts
miekedmr said:
I don't know anyone who's blown out seals, and I don't know enough about it to say that shimming the pump could ever present a problem.
I posted to get a discussion going so that people who have something to offer can educate me and everyone else.
The non-assanine response from you could have gone something like...

"The problem with the thicker gear idea is that we don't really need extra pressure at idle, just higher up in the rpm band, where there is already an excess of oil going through the pump. I don't think it'd be worth the trouble for that reason. I shimmed the wastegate Xmm, and I don't have any problems with the pressure spiking at high rpms, so the relief valve must be doing it's job ok. The pressure peaks at XXpsi at XXXXrpm and stays there. I have not had any problems yet from the higher pressure."

Look at that! Amazing! Useful!

If you didn't know that it would pose a problem why did you infer that it would. Just reread your post. Also just because I shimmed my pump, and it worked for me doesnt mean if you go another viable route you are an idiot. I never said theat or inferred that. I only state what you suggest is more costlier as Glen chimed in as well. You are only insinuating this is my feelings because You feel slighted that I didnt agree with you, and it is your small benign attempt to throw a dart at me for disagreeing with you...grow up.
 

·
slowest restoration ever
Joined
·
626 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
When you throw a little laughing WTF smiley in there it kind of implies that i'm being an idiot.
 

·
SUPRAF0RUMS TROLL
Joined
·
1,610 Posts
cant we all just get along?...

o btw... noone is going to reengineer the oil pump drive gears... too much hassle ... and for 99.9999999999999999% people the oil system is just good enough... the only reason why anyone would have a gripe about the oiling system is if it has failed for them before because of their own ignorance of not keeping the 7m at an adequate oil level...
 

·
I Love Lamp...
Joined
·
2,184 Posts
BrokenSupra said:
cant we all just get along?...

o btw... noone is going to reengineer the oil pump drive gears... too much hassle ... and for 99.9999999999999999% people the oil system is just good enough... the only reason why anyone would have a gripe about the oiling system is if it has failed for them before because of their own ignorance of not keeping the 7m at an adequate oil level...
And if you are really worried about the oil level that bad... you can get your pan modified for $200... i consider that pocket change for insurance on a motor.

Tim
 

·
475RWHP 449TQ and climing
Joined
·
5,952 Posts
miekedmr said:
When you throw a little laughing WTF smiley in there it kind of implies that i'm being an idiot.

Only in your little mind does it say this not mines. I say what I mean, and mean what I say. So if I say that it isn't the case, and you were smart enought to read into thios because of your own insecurities thats your problem. again grow up!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
899 Posts


Oil pump shims for relief valve spring.

aprox 11 to 11.5mm diameter with a center hole. i made 3 sizes. 3.5mm, 5mm, 8mm

Brand new oil pump & fresh rebuilt motor.
I am using the 3.5mm shim. cold start 10W30 oil. aprox 75psi
Hot idle aprox 20psi
Driving hot 40-50PSI

Keep in mind i have no oil cooler just a oil filter on the block like a 5M / 7M

I do plan to add oilfilter relocation & cooler so my pressure will drop and should be more acceptable.
 

·
slowest restoration ever
Joined
·
626 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
selz202 said:
And if you are really worried about the oil level that bad... you can get your pan modified for $200... i consider that pocket change for insurance on a motor.

Tim
Who mods them?
 

·
I Love Lamp...
Joined
·
2,184 Posts
Contact dr. jonez for who actually mods them. but i have the guys email saved still, ill shoot you a pm.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top