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Project: Stiffest chassis ever!

5.5K views 68 replies 28 participants last post by  Boompumper  
#1 ·
The 8 point bar will soon be complete. With the welding done on that I'll be able to finally get around to foam injecting everything. I've also got a RXB, rear strut tower bar, hatch bar, jic lower bar and will soon be doing a H type front tower bar.

I know about seam welding, but I think it would be kinda expensive to undertake that project.

Is there anything obvious that I'm over looking here? What else can be done that isn't prohibitively expensive? I was kinda thinking some more under bracing along the driveshaft tunnel.

Ideas?
 
#6 ·
sway bars

if you havent already

i just got my tt sways in the mail and they put the mk3 sways to shame! theyre really a weak link once you get past springs and struts.

Ang
 
#7 ·
your tt sway bars!? those fit?
 
#8 ·
What kind of racing are you guys doing that you need such a stiff chassis?

For road racing and autox, the benefits of a super stiff chassis would not be noticed unless you already had a fully dialed in set of coil overs, sway bars, poly bushings, some serious race tires on a very aggressive alignment setup and the whole thing cornerweighted... what on earth do you need all that reinforcement for? :eek:
 
#9 ·
But the stiff chasis would be good even on a street car, cause it would reduce rattles, and provide an overall better feel for the car, i think the foam thing is something i would do, along with seam welding (do it over a weekend pull out the carpet and shit.)
 
#10 ·
1. NEVER seam weld a car....unless you want to die.

2. you're overlooking tying the strut towers into the cage. ditch the STB and make an X from the strut towers to the main hoop. if you're real crazy, get the 10 pt conversion and go thru the firewall to the front strut towers....
 
#11 ·
Explain^ why would i die?
 
#12 ·
the car would not crumble like it is supposed to in an accident...instead of the car taking the impact, your brain is
 
#14 · (Edited)
There is some truth to seam welding being dangerous, and some urban myth here.
1) Anything you do to the passenger compartment to make it stronger is a good thing.
2) Don't mess with the crush ZONES. (They are generally from the strut towers outwards to the front and rear of the car.)

With this in mind, adding more mass to the floor pan under yourself is a good idea. Especially around your feet. (IN a hard impact, you don't want the tire/wheel/suspension to come in and roll the floor pan and lower part of the A post around your ankles.) It also makes the passenger compartment less likely to deform and cause you harm too.
So, to put most the "seam welding kills you" myth to bed, just don't seam weld anywhere else but the passenger compartment. If you do tie your roll cage into the car, don't go past the strut towers. (I see peope doing this all the time, they run a hoop of pipe down to the front rails behind the core support off the towers, and that is just plain STUPID as that area needs to crush in an impact.)
Same goes for foam. Infinity has used it for years, and i've seen the results. (And it's one reason I own a Q45 for my family.) They hold up very well in impacts and roll over accidents. Fill your rockers, A posts, C posts and subframes with foam. You need to use structural foam however, not construction foam. Don't get stuff that expands too much either, or you'll do a huge amount of body damage to your car. (It will blow up your rockers and take the body lines right out of your car. It can also seperate panels if your not careful. One guy I've seen added it to his rear hatch to make it stronger for his huge Subs, and it split the two parts completely. (He used construction foam too, so it has very little structual ability, so got screwed twice.)
Wait till you see the cost of structual foam. It's not cheap. You can buy it at any auto paint supply store.
On this subject, Shawn and I have spent a good deal of time discussing many ideas in other threads.'
A few ideas worth it that I remember.
1) Upper front brace from strut towers to cowl. (I'd also beef up the cowl as it seems too weak to hold up to much impact. You could tie you new cage into this if you wanted. Be careful you don't add anything that could become a "skewer" as Dr. J pointed out.)
2) Lower pan brace made from alluminum with rolled ribbs that is bolted into place closing the tunnel from about the transmission crossmember to the rear suspension cradle. This would take some fabrication skills, but you could end up with a very smooth bottem to the car, and add alot of strength for a little weight. Also the weight added is nice and low. This might take a custom oval tube exhaust setup, and some other tricks like a one piece driveshaft etc. I'd use the stock centerbearing mount as one of the atachment points as well. If you tied this into the rear subframe, so it's as wide as the car there basicly, you get the same effect the DoLuck RXB has, but better I'd think. (Your floorpan would be super strong. Heck, if you used urethane as an adheasive, it would be permanent.) Just keep in mind removal of the driveshaft would become an issue with this design. You might need to notch the pan or leave a way to remove a center panel, but nothing that could not be overcome with simple designs.
3) JIC lower brace, but going a step further. Tie into the rear of the bushings, but also into the stock cross tube in a X design.
4) Rear strut towers that triangulate back to the sides of the floor. X Design again with a top brace. If your doing a cage, just tie the strut towers into your cage.
Ultimately the best desgin would start out with a hardtop car, add a cage, tie in the towers, rockers, floorpan and braces, both front and rear cradles to a ladder type bar running under both rockers also tied into the roll cage and then foam filled areas around the passenger compartment leaving the crush zones infront of and behind the strut towers intact.

Good luck.
 
#15 ·
The foam really is a stupid idea. And really... if your going that stiff, why not just make a tubular chassis?

Reducing rattles.... yah i think the girls will notice the huge cage in the car and the added harshness a lot more than the rattles being gone :p
 
#17 ·
Ckanderson said:
But the stiff chasis would be good even on a street car, cause it would reduce rattles, and provide an overall better feel for the car, i think the foam thing is something i would do, along with seam welding (do it over a weekend pull out the carpet and shit.)
A full cage in a street car? Functionality... sure! Practically... hell no!

Besides, I've learned that too much stiffness isn't necessarily a good thing. So many times I've seen cars that put in a big beefy front sway bar, and all of a sudden they are lifting the outside tire when taking a sharp turn. Anytime you lift a tire you lose overall grip... and that for sure isnt good.
 
#19 ·
WHOA! you took me the wrong way, a stiff CHASSIS and a stiff SUSPENTION are two different things. I never talked abotu a full roll cage in the car, as that isnt what i want in a daily driver. My miata has a roll tube, HUGE difference. anyways.
but Seam (or spot) welding a chassis, and filling the voids with foam, and addign a few braces if done properly will yeild a stiff and responsive chassis, with little to no effect on the actul drivability of the car. why do you think car manufacturers are touting how much stiffer thier frames are from year to yer? ALSO racing BMW's lift their inside front tire alot, i have a poster of one doing it. (3.0 csl if ya know what that is)
 
#21 ·
Reducing rattles.... yah i think the girls will notice the huge cage in the car and the added harshness a lot more than the rattles being gone
Just to clarify: Having a solid chassis is very desirable 'even in a street car'. A stiffer chassis will be LESS harsh as impact energy from the road will be absorbed mostly in the suspension and not your girls ass.
 
#22 ·
I agree with David on the sway bars, but the stiffer the chassis the more work the suspension does vs flexing the chassis. And while lifting wheels can be seen in many motorsports, it isn't as desireable as it overloads the tire left on ground
 
#23 ·
a cage on the street is not the safest thing unless you plan on wearing a neck brace and helmut... cuz the truth is, in an impact, your head flops around uncontrollably... and if you have a halo or side bar near you... youll probably crack your head open and/or break several ribs and have them puncturing your lungs... maybe breaking your hip depending on where your forward bar comes down.
 
#24 · (Edited)
thats why you pad all the bars in the vicinity of your body. I disagree with the notion that a cage is bad on the streets, and seam welding between the strut towers shouldn't affect the crumple zones. Why do you think advertisers boast about their integrated safey shell around the driver?

Pic from a recent mk4 street crash (lack of padding is concerning, but it kept the roof from falling in):
Image


He's a MK4 that didn't have a bar:
Image
 
#25 ·
if you get t-boned by a car goin 35ish... you are at pretty good risk of fracturing your cranium or developing a hemotoma and dying later on... i assure you.
 
#26 ·
With "nascar" bars you prevent said car from crushing through the door and hitting you.


And we can all think of worst-case scenerios. You shouldn't wear your seatbelt because if you roll over upside-down into a pond you might not be able to unlatch it :rolleyes: