[VEGGIM]

According to bestcarweb, there will be a 6th gen supra. Only thing is it will be an EV. Most likely to use the pseudo MT that lexus is doing.

トヨタ 6代目スープラはEVに生まれ変わる!!　FR＋疑似MT採用で2025年登場か!? - 自動車情報誌「ベストカー」

トヨタスープラの次期型はEVに生まれ変わる!? FRレイアウトの本格2シータースポーツカーで話題の疑似MT、新世代異形ステアリング…などなど、トヨタの新世代技術満載で2025年登場の予定!!

bestcarweb.jp

 

[iwantablackRZ]

They talk about the steering wheel being a joystick. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[VEGGIM]

They talk about the steering wheel being a joystick. I'll believe it when I see it.

It it's anything. It also speaks of a GRMN Supra with 542hp with the S58. Meant to be released in 2025 as a send off.

The s58 is one I'm skeptical about. Only cuz it'd destroy most of bmw's own cars because of the CLAR's platform advantage over other bmws. Though the z4 is failing to sell compard to the Supra. Wonder if that would explain why when toyota went to bmw. Bmw originally rejected the offer to collaborate. Just like subaru did.

 

[Wreckless]

This is making all the rounds through the various car clickbait sites, usually along with a rendering or two from some random person totally unaffiliated with Toyota, and absolutely no verified sources or established information from any journalist or industry source that's reputable enough to believe.

We dealt with this for literally decades before the MKV showed up; and it was absolutely nothing like any of those predictions.

I suspect the precedent set by the MKV will hold true here, and whatever MKVI that comes to exist is sure to disappoint us and break our hearts in ways that are totally impossible to predict.

At this point, the MKVI could be a Chevy Volt-style hybrid 5 door wagon made by Tata in India with some Toyota Supra badging slapped on it. But don't worry I'm sure there will be some 1 of 250 'A100 Edition' with throwback JZA80 style wheels or door handles or something.

 

[Supra Dr]

It will be a JZA80 wing, everybody loves it. Even the Honda guys.

Rear wing for Honda Civic (2001 - 2003) › AVB Sports car tuning & spare parts

Supra Style no-Lite 50.5 Long x 13 High

www.avb-sports.be

 

[VEGGIM]

This is making all the rounds through the various car clickbait sites, usually along with a rendering or two from some random person totally unaffiliated with Toyota, and absolutely no verified sources or established information from any journalist or industry source that's reputable enough to believe.

We dealt with this for literally decades before the MKV showed up; and it was absolutely nothing like any of those predictions.

I suspect the precedent set by the MKV will hold true here, and whatever MKVI that comes to exist is sure to disappoint us and break our hearts in ways that are totally impossible to predict.

At this point, the MKVI could be a Chevy Volt-style hybrid 5 door wagon made by Tata in India with some Toyota Supra badging slapped on it. But don't worry I'm sure there will be some 1 of 250 'A100 Edition' with throwback JZA80 style wheels or door handles or something.

Well for the mk5 being bmw collab. You can kinda blame the executives(aka the old guard) blocking the ability to go all toyota twice. First with the mkv that was supposed to come out after the mkiv and the gt86 after the fear by the sales failure of the Supra and next the W30 mr2 and T230 celica. The LFA was just the final nail in the coffin. And the 2008 recession adding more fuel to the fire.

Wanna know what other car got the same fate other than the all toyota 86 and Supra that was originally going to come in 2010-2012. The IDx

Nissan was planning to sell a competitor to the GT 86/FR-S/BRZ which reached a full concept phase known as the IDx Freeflow and Nismo. They both are based on the original Datsun 510, and are basically low-powered coupé sedans that had a manual and were RWD. Nissan was going to build the whole thing, but eventually they cancelled the project because the FR-S/GT 86/BRZ didn't sell enough volume for Nissan execs to consider going forward with their competitor.

This shows one thing that seems to be a pattern. As long as executives do not approve it for any reason it will not go through. Heck the subaru thing was an ultimatum. It was either they co-develop with subaru or the car is not approved for development.

 

[Wreckless]

Well for the mk5 being bmw collab. You can kinda blame the executives(aka the old guard) blocking the ability to go all toyota twice. First with the mkv that was supposed to come out after the mkiv and the gt86 after the fear by the sales failure of the Supra and next the W30 mr2 and T230 celica. The LFA was just the final nail in the coffin. And the 2008 recession adding more fuel to the fire.

Wanna know what other car got the same fate other than the all toyota 86 and Supra that was originally going to come in 2010-2012. The IDx

Nissan was planning to sell a competitor to the GT 86/FR-S/BRZ which reached a full concept phase known as the IDx Freeflow and Nismo. They both are based on the original Datsun 510, and are basically low-powered coupé sedans that had a manual and were RWD. Nissan was going to build the whole thing, but eventually they cancelled the project because the FR-S/GT 86/BRZ didn't sell enough volume for Nissan execs to consider going forward with their competitor.

This shows one thing that seems to be a pattern. As long as executives do not approve it for any reason it will not go through. Heck the subaru thing was an ultimatum. It was either they co-develop with subaru or the car is not approved for development.

You weren't active on this forum back when all this happened, so I guess I can't blame you for thinking anything you just said here is in any way news or surprising or not already known to us.
Suffice to say that
a) Yes, we know the old guard fucked us repeatedly on a new Supra. Look at my join date on this forum, we talked about all of that depressing crap as it happened.
b) In the 2016-2017 timeframe before the MKV was released, that some of that 'old guard' and their representatives physically met with people active on this forum. They asked about what we want in a MKV. I met a couple of them tangentially while they were talking with far heavier hitters in the Supra world than little old me. But I got to put my own ass on the leather of the silver FT-1 concept car (and that was cool!)

What we asked was loud and clear - 100% Toyota, no Subaru or other engines. ~400hp minimum. Manual transmission, good tuning support.
Everything else came distantly in second to those priorities. Yes we wanted an I6 but we wanted a Toyota engine more. Same for turbocharging and everything else. We wanted a Toyota.

They didn't just ignore some or even most of what we asked - the MKV is almost exactly the opposite of what we asked for, to the point where it's hard to believe they did anything other than take our feedback and go line-by-line to do their very best to make sure the resulting car was exactly what we didn't want.

 

[TTNickSoCal]

They finally going to give us the FT-1 we all wanted?

 

[Wreckless]

They finally going to give us the FT-1 we all wanted?

 

[VEGGIM]

You weren't active on this forum back when all this happened, so I guess I can't blame you for thinking anything you just said here is in any way news or surprising or not already known to us.
Suffice to say that
a) Yes, we know the old guard fucked us repeatedly on a new Supra. Look at my join date on this forum, we talked about all of that depressing crap as it happened.
b) In the 2016-2017 timeframe before the MKV was released, that some of that 'old guard' and their representatives physically met with people active on this forum. They asked about what we want in a MKV. I met a couple of them tangentially while they were talking with far heavier hitters in the Supra world than little old me. But I got to put my own ass on the leather of the silver FT-1 concept car (and that was cool!)

What we asked was loud and clear - 100% Toyota, no Subaru or other engines. ~400hp minimum. Manual transmission, good tuning support.
Everything else came distantly in second to those priorities. Yes we wanted an I6 but we wanted a Toyota engine more. Same for turbocharging and everything else. We wanted a Toyota.

They didn't just ignore some or even most of what we asked - the MKV is almost exactly the opposite of what we asked for, to the point where it's hard to believe they did anything other than take our feedback and go line-by-line to do their very best to make sure the resulting car was exactly what we didn't want.

It seems like Tada's need an i6 philosophy was kinda attributed by one person.

Tada-san was recruited for Z Division in 2007 by none other than Ichiro Suzuki, the legendary Toyota engineer responsible for some of his company’s greatest achievements, such as the V8 of the first Toyota Century, the original Lexus LS, and the A80 Supra.
Initially, Tada-san was excited to work on the next Supra. He waited with anticipation, then waited some more. The opportunity never came. “At the time, Toyota — and all manufacturers — was moving away from sports cars. I asked Suzuki-san, ‘What should I do?'” Tada recalled. “‘You’re in charge of the Raum,’ he said.”

For those that don’t know, the Raum is a Japan-market compact minivan. It has its charms, but is as far from a sports car as one can get. “‘What are you talking about? This is a car for old people!’ I replied. Suzuki-san got really mad. ‘The fundamental approach to carmaking is the same, no matter what kind of car you’re building. You have to think about the customer, how they are going to use the car, how they are going to feel when they drive the car. You have to think about it every day. If you don’t get that, you will never build a sports car.'”
The lesson stayed with Tada-san all these years, and he clearly respects Suzuki-san a great deal. In fact, Tada is the only engineer still left at the company that worked under Suzuki, who has since passed away. As a result, Tada-san has tried his best to apply what he learned from him to the new Supra. “He would have wanted the Supra to come back the most,” Tada reckoned, “And he told me, ‘A sports car must have an inline-six.'”
“They are the greatest engines for sports cars, though difficult for packaging. They are a perfectly balanced engine,” Tada-san explained, “The way the rpms proceed, the way there’s no vibrations. The boxer engine also has minimal vibrations, but there’s still a little. Many times unnecessary vibrations ruin the driving experience. You can strengthen engine mounts, add counterbalancers, but it will never be 100 percent.”
“Plus,” Tada-san added, “The sound is amazing.”

source:The real reason why Toyota didn’t build its own Supra from the ground up | Japanese Nostalgic Car

Regardless. If it was the 100% toyota part and no i6 would be possible. I would kinda rather have the 2gr. Why the 2gr. Well uhh the v35a has had uhh, issues. These issues were:
Rod bearing Failure
Turbo Failures
Excessive oil consumption.

The v35a feels like the j37 of toyota.

 

[VEGGIM]

They finally going to give us the FT-1 we all wanted?

The ft-1 was a roadster though. According to this rumor. Its a 2+2. Probably with the battery down low cuz the lower cog. Though sports cars are gonna get a lot harder to sell since average mpg regulations are increasing and emissions are probably going to get tighter. But toyota being toyota. It's going to try and use the psuedo manual transmission that lexus made cuz why not. If you don't know what i mean.

 

[Wreckless]

It seems like Tada's need an i6 philosophy was kinda attributed by one person.

source:The real reason why Toyota didn’t build its own Supra from the ground up | Japanese Nostalgic Car

Regardless. If it was the 100% toyota part and no i6 would be possible. I would kinda rather have the 2gr. Why the 2gr. Well uhh the v35a has had uhh, issues. These issues were:
Rod bearing Failure
Turbo Failures
Excessive oil consumption.

The v35a feels like the j37 of toyota.

That article is pretty old, but it's better than most of them as far as the details on the how/when all the BMW/Toyota stuff got started.

None of that matters though and ultimately that it's all a polite side show to distract everyone from the elephant in the room.
Toyota has more than 200 Billion USD in available development capital. That is more than virtually every other automaker on the planet combined.

They could have built a V12 TT for the Supra if they wanted to, and made the car bespoke with zero platform sharing. But they're too busy crying into the mountains of money they're making on the same 10+ year old hybrid and 4Runner and truck platforms that they literally can't make enough of to satisfy demand.
So why get off their ass and develop a whole new car that wouldn't be anywhere near as profitable? They were so focused on numbers alone that any sense of pride or purpose in the Supra being a flagship of Toyota's efforts and capability was completely lost.

So, everyone saying 'it was impossible' or 'it was too expensive' to make a turbo I6 and 100% Toyota is getting it twisted. It was neither of those things.
It was just much cheaper to play in BMW's parts bin and bean counters and boards of directors LOVE 'cheaper'.

So they sent some guys over to play around in BMW's parts bin, get the development figured out, and slapped their own badges on the car and called it a day.
That article is being very generous about the 'Toyota DNA' in the MKV. I've looked in and around and all throughout the virtually all of the components of a MK5 and I've seen a shitload of BMW logos on parts, it looks like the M235i's and other B58 BMW's I've worked on everywhere that matters with the German garbage plastic components to prove it. It's made in Austria and has the VIN and origin docs to show for it, and the only Toyota markings are the badges on the hood, trunk, steering wheel, and infotainment.
The engine, powertrain, suspension, brakes, unit body, electronics, interior parts etc are all 100% BMW and while it has some of the better parts from M versions of the B58, it's still very much a BMW engine with BMW problems in their collective futures. Go to any Toyota dealership and ask the service manager how much his techs like working on Supras.

So ultimately it was really a 'can't see the forest through the trees' sort of thing. Toyota execs just followed a pragmatic and cheap as possible process to get the 'Supra monkey' off their backs without understanding anything about why we all held on to our older Supras. If a BMW product was good enough to replace the JZA80, we'd have all sold them off for 135i's and 335i's a long time ago.

 

[Piratetip]

Toyota has the most cash in hand of any Automotive company that exists. (Somewhere around 60 Billion USD)
The excuse of: "We don't want to develop a new engine from the ground up, its too costly"
Its total bullshit.

They never wanted to, they simply didn't care.
So they went the cheap route and partnered with BMW.

Same route they have gone with other partnerships, Subaru, Mazda, Isuzu, BMW ect..
Partnering and spreading development costs between companies means more cash in their pocket.

Even Mazda has a new I6 they developed in house.
Toyota has no excuse. Zero.

Edit: Dangit Jeff, you beat me.!
Ah well, same points twice over.

 

[VEGGIM]

Toyota has the most cash in hand of any Automotive company that exists. (Somewhere around 60 Billion USD)
The excuse of: "We don't want to develop a new engine from the ground up, its too costly"
Its total bullshit.

They never wanted to, they simply didn't care.
So they went the cheap route and partnered with BMW.

Same route they have gone with other partnerships, Subaru, Mazda, Isuzu, BMW ect..
Partnering and spreading development costs between companies means more cash in their pocket.

Even Mazda has a new I6 they developed in house.
Toyota has no excuse. Zero.

Edit: Dangit Jeff, you beat me.!
Ah well, same points twice over.

Less the fact that it was too costly and mote of the fact that they want yo make it affordable. Ie 50-60k. Also add they wanted it to be for profit. The LFA, A80, MR2, and Celica basically installed fear into executives.

Apparently toyota still has a stake and deal with mazda. Mazdas platform is more futureoroof. Since it's just rwd based awd and it looks like it can be used for many other cars. No rwd mazda 6 though as that got discontinued.

 

[Piratetip]

Exactly, its not a flagship car anymore.
Its just another run of the mill money maker for Toyota.

The 94-98' Supra was not readily affordable by any means, they didn't sell in huge numbers either.
But it was the best of the best, even today it is still a highly regarded vehicle that holds its value.
The BMW parts pin car will never hold that kind of title.
In the 90's they originally sold for ~42-52k USD, if you run the numbers that kind of buying power today is ~$80k.

Mazda developed a new 3.3L Turbo I6 in house with no complaining about cost.
The exact opposite of what the enormous beast of a company Toyota did.

 

[VEGGIM]

Exactly, its not a flagship car anymore.
Its just another run of the mill money maker for Toyota.

The 94-98' Supra was not readily affordable by any means, they didn't sell in huge numbers either.
But it was the best of the best, even today it is still a highly regarded vehicle that holds its value.
The BMW parts pin car will never hold that kind of title.
In the 90's they originally sold for ~42-52k USD, if you run the numbers that kind of buying power today is ~$80k.

Mazda developed a new 3.3L Turbo I6 in house with no complaining about cost.
The exact opposite of what the enormous beast of a company Toyota did.

One thing we don't know is that if mazda is gonna have a money loss. ie like the corvette c8. They lost money on every base model corvette but made it up and confidently did since American sports cars just sell well in the states. I wonder if mazda was borrowing toyota's money. I can't find a source for that though.

Though BMW is getting no benefit at all from this. their z4 sales barely cross the 10k sales mark. The supra crossed it in like 3 years. And right now. 21k units have been sold. Thing is that's the number of units a corvette sold for an entire year. 21k in 1 year would be non American oem's pipe dream when it comes to sports cars.

Edit: Forgot to mention that the benchmark was the porsche cayman. It was trying to undercut it. The cayman always seems to be a benchmark when it comes to cars. The cayman just seems to have a bit more pure driving dynamic than the supra's or the m2. But the pricing of the cayman new wise is tough to swallow.

 

[Wreckless]

Less the fact that it was too costly and mote of the fact that they want yo make it affordable. Ie 50-60k. Also add they wanted it to be for profit. The LFA, A80, MR2, and Celica basically installed fear into executives.

Apparently toyota still has a stake and deal with mazda. Mazdas platform is more futureoroof. Since it's just rwd based awd and it looks like it can be used for many other cars. No rwd mazda 6 though as that got discontinued.

No, Toyota could have easily amortized the dev costs of an I6 into being a truck/SUV engine just the same, but they didn't. They could have used the same underpinnings or engine pattern as the TT V6 they developed for the Tundra to replace V8's, they didn't. They could have sold it for $70-90k if it met the hype and expectations no problem - the Nissan GT-R's a 15 year old platform and still selling for 6-digits. But Toyota didn't.

I'm glad you're hyped and drank the kool-aid dude. I hope you buy a MKV and enjoy your car in good health. I'd just recommend you leave it stock and buy whatever extended warranty you can.

 

[VEGGIM]

They could have sold it for $70-90k if it met the hype and expectations no problem - the Nissan GT-R's a 15 year old platform and still selling for 6-digits. But Toyota didn't.

Uhh about that. Sure it would sell but probably not the amount of a 911. Which sells around 9k-10k units per year on average. It seems like whenever someone compares sports cars today, it's always compared to the porsche cayman or 911, or the Chevy corvette.

 

[BonestockNA]

I have Datsun roots myself and I think Nissan really gained back some swag when they introduced this version of the Z.
Maybe Toyota will learn something from this.
You really have to cook up your own pony car from your own original recipe and fine ingredients.
Shoving out a greasy Happy Meal to this market just won't cut it.

 

[signalpuke]

All Toyota needs to do is slap a couple of turbos on whatever the flagship Lexus coupe is called, and tone down the styling, making is more sporty. Maybe stitch weld the chassis and stiffer suspension, etc. and offer it with a 6 or 7 speed manual.