Supra Forums banner
1 - 20 of 64 Posts

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
14,241 Posts
Other Supra OG's have mentioned this video on social media, and almost all have very good things to say. I don't have time to watch it now but I'll update this post once I do!
 

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,842 Posts
Generally, I think it's a good review of the car although they fail to mention how the Supra fared against its direct competition (Z32 TT, 3000GT VR-4, R-7, Corvette) and the NSX. The MKIV Supra was virtually undefeated in comparison tests of the day.

These guys are highly respected reviewers but I fear they fell into the same trap as many in the mainstream media did back in the day; that is to say they made comments similar to the Savage Geese comments.....until the objective data was presented. These data had the Supra winning virtually all of the traditional performance tests against competition that "offered a better driving experience".

I'm not contesting that the NSX, RX- 7 and maybe others had/have a subjectively sharper driving experience than the MKIV Supra. That said, when the numbers were added up, the MKIV Supra was almost always the winner. Feel versus metrics, which one is more important? IMO, reviewers often get this part wrong.

One of the more egregious examples occurred many years ago when C/D named the Honda Prelude the "Best handling car in the world" when the Porsche 944 was the outright winner of every performance test, but was undid by the "feel" of the Prelude according to the writers.

The reviewers rightly noted all the work and engineering that went into the MKIV 's suspension and therein lies the magic, IMO, getting the GT ride and road manners while getting the sports car performance metrics at the same time. Tough to get this right without resorting to electronically controlled suspensions even in 2023.


Ken.
 

· Hardtop >
Joined
·
1,748 Posts
Overall they did a good job but wish they got a hold of a Supra that was in better shape. This looked to be a higher mileage example with original bushings etc. certainly not the best example to use when doing a comparison like this in my opinion. The comments are cringe though. You can tell most the comments are from kids or people who have never driven one.
 

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,914 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
They also got a JDM car which is not 100% the same car the USA got in terms of performance. Either way it was a decent if flawed video. Here is a picture of my car on that same track they drive at, Autobahn Country Club in July 2011. In all the pictures my buddy took, when my car was in the picture no other car was close and that includes the C6 Corvette that was there that day.

Sky Plant Tree Vehicle Road surface
 

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
14,241 Posts
They also got a JDM car which is not 100% the same car the USA got in terms of performance. Either way it was a decent if flawed video. Here is a picture of my car on that same track they drive at, Autobahn Country Club in July 2011. In all the pictures my buddy took, when my car was in the picture no other car was close and that includes the C6 Corvette that was there that day.
That's yet another unique thing but also another point of confusion about the JZA80; So many JDM models of a car were superior to the US market exports. The JZA80 is a rare case where the opposite is true, and the export model is notably superior in most ways, especially in 93-95.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
603 Posts
One of the more egregious examples occurred many years ago when C/D named the Honda Prelude the "Best handling car in the world" when the Porsche 944 was the outright winner of every performance test, but was undid by the "feel" of the Prelude according to the writers.
A long while back I owned one of the 5th generation Type SH Preludes when it was new. It did/does have excellent handling (and has double wishbones at all four wheels) and the classic era Honda engine was/is still fun. The complicated torque vectoring front diff (ATTS) was great although worked differently than a traditional mechanical LSD does (which you could get instead with Japanese market models). The ATTS unit is also not easy to service 20-30 years down the road.

That active torque vectoring system is what made it unique being an early implementation of such a system. It would happily bulldoze and shove you through corners while on the gas. Great for mountain road driving fun. Where most FWD chassis had cheaper suspension designs and would succumb to understeer the last Prelude with the ATTS unit made it somewhat more neutral. It wouldn't oversteer unless you tried VERY hard for that (even with upgraded swaybars) but it did not behave as most FWD coupes of the time did.

I also recall many of those reviews from back in the day calling the last Prelude the "best handling car in the world". It wasn't of course... but for that class of vehicle and chassis design it was very good. I enjoyed it for the decade that I owned it. It was always fun to drive.

However... a Porsche 944, Integra Type R, S2000, NSX, properly set up 240SX/Silvia, Lotus Elise and countless other more focused cars easily outclassed it. No contest. It wasn't even close. It was also hampered by its not too heavy but still not "light" weight by the standards of the day (3,050lbs for the Prelude Type SH) coupled with its low horsepower and low torque. It really needed +50hp more and +50 ft-lbs more from the factory. The wheel wells would also max out at 245mm rubber all around squeezed in (stock tire widths were 205mm).

As you say... reviewers of the time really needed to reign it in a bit and put some more perspective into play when they called something "the best ____ in the world".

I liked mine while I owned it and did very much enjoy its handling on twisty roads but would never make such a claim as reviewers did back in the day about it being "the best" handler of all. It was just obviously not the case.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
They also got a JDM car which is not 100% the same car the USA got in terms of performance. Either way it was a decent if flawed video. Here is a picture of my car on that same track they drive at, Autobahn Country Club in July 2011. In all the pictures my buddy took, when my car was in the picture no other car was close and that includes the C6 Corvette that was there that day.

View attachment 286620
That's yet another unique thing but also another point of confusion about the JZA80; So many JDM models of a car were superior to the US market exports. The JZA80 is a rare case where the opposite is true, and the export model is notably superior in most ways, especially in 93-95.
Just to play devils advocate(I might be really wrong), so lets say they do find a USDM stock example, I would be incline to believe that the USDM example would most likely be one of two conditions:

1. Be somewhat of a garage queen that probably sat for a long time, gets started once a month. and probably would have the same stock suspension bushings from many moons ago.
2. or a heavily driven/daily driver one in a not so great shape

Either way, effectively you would get a similar suspension experience with the JDM example from the video(Note 1). I think JDM JZA80 are lighter than the USDM counterparts(Note 2), but the USDM have more horsepower. So....I think overall its a pretty good comparison. Also, the Silverback gorilla(Jack) and Mole rat(Mark) wouldn't notice much of a different in terms of driving experience between the JDM and USDM.

If you watch their videos, Jack is the crazy one that just prefers massive hp and wants to go sideways all the time. Mark likes the traditional sportscar experience(the "driving experience", steering feedback, naturally aspirated, etc), not super big on grand tours though I think he has a LC500 just for the engine. Either way, a stock JZA80 isn't something they would like anyways. From what I gather from watching their videos, they don't really have a soft spot for semi-underpowered grand tours. And to be frank, I don't think a USDM will alter their final conclusion by that much. Mark wasn't very high on the r32 gtr either. I have a feeling that Mark will love the NSX because that is something he prefers. I think he tracks a honda s2k and owns the new civic type-r soo you can see where we are already going with this.

Note 1: I am arguing that both USDM JZA80 would have old suspenstion bushings regardless if its a garage queen or a heavily driven one.
Note 2: I remember there was a Hot Version/Best Motoring video were they compared the JDM vs USDM JZA80 and the JDM RZ(6-spd/TT) won in a drag race due to the weight difference.

Ok end of devils advocate. How wrong am I?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,179 Posts
Review vid was a good watch with the GF, gave her some perspective for my car year and spec. She understands rarity, and numbers, so when I told her that Honda made more Beats in the first two years than all Supras sold in America, she perked up and was interested. Good video overall for a person that knows nothing about the car, or Japanese market and over engineering due to their real estate and stock market making it affordable for them in the 80s and 90s.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,367 Posts
while we can criticize the rhd car being subpar, point of it is that 30 year old supras are going to be a mix bag of conditions. spending top dollar for a the legendary supra in varying condition is the current market reality. Mark is like my Taiwanese father who evaluates restaurants like for its price, value, and enjoyment. It is the winning trifecta that Mark is looking for. While he acknowledged the jdm mkiv tt 6mt for its handling prowess and powertrain, he did not agree on the price point in which it has skyrocketed to. The enjoyment is there, there is sentimental value and potential with its ahead of its time platform, but the price is out of proportion in his mind.

Ive enjoyed my supra for 30 years starting as a child in the back seat. Then as a teenager scraping for fund to mod it as tastefully as possible. Now as a parent in his late 30s, I hold on to this car for its nostalgia and its potential still. it is still a 30 year old car with 30 years of wear and tear. I crave for better sound deadening as the wind + road noises are way too high and the rigidity of my targa is definitely less than desired. I think Mark is spot on to be honest.
 

· Lagmeister
Joined
·
2,915 Posts
One thing I did like, and noticed, was when they mentioned at oem power levels, outright power when on the track was the least of their worries. As much as these cars can be monsters they look plenty of fun to dance around a road course on stock twins.

having never experienced an oem TT 6spd in any form, even the one in the clip seemed plenty willing to rev out to redline. makes me want to even downsize my big twins setup and I haven’t even driven it yet…..
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,087 Posts
Just to play devils advocate(I might be really wrong), so lets say they do find a USDM stock example, I would be incline to believe that the USDM example would most likely be one of two conditions:

1. Be somewhat of a garage queen that probably sat for a long time, gets started once a month. and probably would have the same stock suspension bushings from many moons ago.
2. or a heavily driven/daily driver one in a not so great shape

Either way, effectively you would get a similar suspension experience with the JDM example from the video(Note 1). I think JDM JZA80 are lighter than the USDM counterparts(Note 2), but the USDM have more horsepower. So....I think overall its a pretty good comparison. Also, the Silverback gorilla(Jack) and Mole rat(Mark) wouldn't notice much of a different in terms of driving experience between the JDM and USDM.

If you watch their videos, Jack is the crazy one that just prefers massive hp and wants to go sideways all the time. Mark likes the traditional sportscar experience(the "driving experience", steering feedback, naturally aspirated, etc), not super big on grand tours though I think he has a LC500 just for the engine. Either way, a stock JZA80 isn't something they would like anyways. From what I gather from watching their videos, they don't really have a soft spot for semi-underpowered grand tours. And to be frank, I don't think a USDM will alter their final conclusion by that much. Mark wasn't very high on the r32 gtr either. I have a feeling that Mark will love the NSX because that is something he prefers. I think he tracks a honda s2k and owns the new civic type-r soo you can see where we are already going with this.

Note 1: I am arguing that both USDM JZA80 would have old suspenstion bushings regardless if its a garage queen or a heavily driven one.
Note 2: I remember there was a Hot Version/Best Motoring video were they compared the JDM vs USDM JZA80 and the JDM RZ(6-spd/TT) won in a drag race due to the weight difference.

Ok end of devils advocate. How wrong am I?

You are wrong because you are ignorant on US Specs. The US/Euro spec Supras are superior in every way.

Here are a few of the many differences off the top of my head (there are more)

US spec 6spd TT Supra:

Standard 4/2 piston calipers
"Big" 220mm diff w/ LSD stock
Bigger cams
Bigger injectors
Steel turbos (more reliable than the fragile ceramic JDM turbos)
Bigger downpipe
Bigger/better wastegate (no over boosting like JDM)
ABS standard
Bigger fuel pump and fuel pump ecu

The specs get worse when you go "BPU." The JDM Supras aren't even close.
You argue about weight, but a JDM Supra with the same specs as a US Supra weigh the same.

US Supra > JDM Supra
 

· Registered
Joined
·
603 Posts
I agree with them about the 100% stock performance impressions compared to today's 100% stock sports cars... but they rightly pointed out that the many subtle things about the MKIV's feel and chassis design that set it apart from modern sportscars and GT performance cars which in some cases cannot be worked into new designs any longer. And those qualities go far beyond just how much horsepower and torque the 2JZ-GTE has in stock tune (JDM or USDM/UK/Euro).

I do think there is something to be said about how efficiently the MKIV chassis can put down the same amount of horsepower compared to a modern comparison sportscar.... but that is a moot issue. Leave it stock or BPU it or build it to whatever specifications you desire. The engine and chassis are so good even with their 30 year old design that it's a fantastic car in any of those states of tune.

Also while 30 year old sequential stock twins can be a challenge to keep perfectly maintained and while they have known limitations as to ultimate output vs longevity they're a lot of fun and plenty of power to have it with. 30 years ago turbocharger technology was very different and it was Toyota's and Hitachi's clever if complex solution to giving the inline-six great power and torque throughout the entire rev range. Only a few stock performance engines did it that way and the this was one of those few. Today sequential twin turbochargers just are not needed as a solution. Their presence in this car (and in the Aristo sedan) is something very special. Additionally the work of Stu Hagen to improve on their design has given them even more life and interest, I think, for those who want to keep them but want a bit more from them.

There is such irony in the reality that Toyota built, at the time, a flagship sportscar to beat all comers but priced it out of most of its original sales targets only for its true popularity to come about when people bought them second-hand and third-hand... which raised their status and valuation all the way back up to and beyond what they were priced at (adjusted for inflation) when they were new. And that's not a bad thing at all since they are being cared for and recognized now more than ever as they have become classics.

The more modern cars change the more we appreciate what some older models did with the very best engineering of their day... which can not be replicated 1-to-1 in new cars any longer as a whole package.

Supra MKIV's are very special machines both for their historical significance and as the high performance cars and platforms that they are. And they always will be.

....and aside because I have to represent at least a little here, so is its related Z30 SC/Soarer chassis sibling which the MKIV design heavily improved upon ;)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
You are wrong because you are ignorant on US Specs. The US/Euro spec Supras are superior in every way.

Here are a few of the many differences off the top of my head (there are more)

US spec 6spd TT Supra:

Standard 4/2 piston calipers
"Big" 220mm diff w/ LSD stock
Bigger cams
Bigger injectors
Steel turbos (more reliable than the fragile ceramic JDM turbos)
Bigger downpipe
Bigger/better wastegate (no over boosting like JDM)
ABS standard
Bigger fuel pump and fuel pump ecu

The specs get worse when you go "BPU." The JDM Supras aren't even close.
You argue about weight, but a JDM Supra with the same specs as a US Supra weigh the same.

US Supra > JDM Supra
Thanks for pointing out some of the high level differences. Much appreciated.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
281 Posts
Perhaps they’re right in them not being worth $60k+, outside of someone who wants them for nostalgia. Felt like their analysis was right but the value of the Supra went over their head in a sense. Though Im aware that it may be too close to home for me.

As someone who’s paid 6-figures for a Supra. There’s just no other car that gives me the same sense of fulfillment when I look at it or drive it. Just a rich sense of history, while cars today may be more potent they just don’t have the same character or labor of love that the Supra did. That’s not to say I don’t feel the sting of the cost (I’m not rich by any means despite the price tag) but I think any car at that price range would. I justified the RSP as an “investment” haha
 

· Registered
Joined
·
299 Posts
As much as I love Supras, and old cars in general, until you drop a shitload of money modifying it, you will be stomped by a contemporary minivan stoplight to stoplight, even around a corner. So I get it I suppose, but it’s apples to oranges, like Wreckless said it was the superior machine in the 90s, but if you’ve been driving an accord with a 3.0 6 and hop in a stock Supra you’ll surely be disappointed
 

· Old School
Joined
·
4,462 Posts
As much as I love Supras, and old cars in general, until you drop a shitload of money modifying it, you will be stomped by a contemporary minivan stoplight to stoplight, even around a corner. So I get it I suppose, but it’s apples to oranges, like Wreckless said it was the superior machine in the 90s, but if you’ve been driving an accord with a 3.0 6 and hop in a stock Supra you’ll surely be disappointed
Let's not get carried away here. My car with a downpipe, TRD cat-back and 100 octane gas dyno'd 425 rwhp. It ran low 12's/upper 11's at 117-118. I added a GReddy 3 row, dyn'd 457 rwhp and traps went up about 3 mph. ET's stayed the same due to poor 60' times.

Stock it went 13.6-ish at 104-106.

This was in 1999.

A 3.0L Accord will do precisely none of that.
 
1 - 20 of 64 Posts
Top