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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Fellow forums members,

Beware of doing business with forum member KILURV8 aka (Brandon Schaffer).


I posted a used RPS carbon carbon clutch for sale back in December 2012. Link below.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?685202-RPS-Carbon-Carbon-GTE-Cylinder-Head-Gauges-Body-Parts-Wideband-etc.&highlight=

I was very descriptive to what exactly I was selling hence why I posted all clutch disc specifications.

KILURV8 purchased the clutch on December 6th for $840.00 shipped including PayPal fees.

After the buyer purchased the clutch he immediately had it sent out to have the billet upgrade completed. During this time the buyer then stated the clutch needed a complete rebuild.

I reiterated the clutch had no more than 8k miles of use and showed no signs of weakness. I also reiterated that I spoke with RPS prior to my for sale ad to have them voice their opinion of the clutch's life which gave me the green light to post it up for sale.

The buyer was searching for a resolution and I provided one that we both could agree on. I provided a $200.00 refund as an honest long time seller to remedy the situation.

On January 16th 2013 KILURV8 posted the clutch up for sale stating it only required a billet upgrade rebuild. He also stated the clutch discs are “less than half used” and “has 8000-10000 miles left before a rebuild is needed.” This is all provided below via JPEG since the buyer has his for sale ad in a “hold” status.



Upon stumbling across this for sale ad I felt cheated of my honest $200.00 refund provided to the buyer. After my attempt fix the situation he blatantly states the condition of the clutch and this initiated me to submit a charge back for my $200.00. This charge back was approved.

On May 6th 2013 KILURV8 decided to submit a complete charge back (5 months later) for the amount of $840.00. Since this time my PayPal account is showing a negative balance. I have contacted PayPal and I’m willing to resolve the balance once I receive my RPS carbon carbon clutch.

I have spoken to Brandon twice via email since the charge back to confirm shipment of the clutch. Today he stated “Once I received the refund I originally asked for, I disposed of the clutch as it was of no use to me.”

So at this time I’m out of a clutch and the buyer has my money.

I’m giving all fair warning not do business with this member.

Thanks for reading.

A.J.
 

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Send paypal documentation of him stating he disposed the clutch, all contact, and the for sale thread. They should reverse it, especially if you still have the tracking number from when you sent it to him.
 

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I will state my side of what happened and anyone can make their own judgement. I have the email chain for the purchase, refund request, etc at the very bottom of this post.

I did purchase the clutch as stated. I also did send the clutch out to RPS through MVP to have the billet upgrade completed. This is where everything went sideways.

I received a call from Kevin at MVP stating that RPS is saying the clutch is worn and requires a complete rebuild. I contacted the seller with this information and asked for a refund and even offered for him to keep how much it cost him to ship it to me. I was willing to eat the 100 dollars in shipping both ways from RPS to just get my purchase price as I was not interested in spending the money for the rebuild and the billet upgrade as it would have cost me more money than buying a brand new clutch (840 dollars to buy the clutch, 1200 for the rebuild and 450 for the billet upgrade).

The seller refused to accept my request for a refund. We did finally agree to a 200 dollar refund which he sent to me (not as a refund but as a new payment which albeit small, meant I had to eat fees on that money).

I tried to sell the clutch while it was still at RPS if someone wanted to pay for the upgrade taking into account this 200 dollars I was refunded by the seller. I did not get any takers on this so I had the clutch sent back to me.

When I recieved the clutch, I noticed that these were the gold plates and based off a statement from RPS on an MVP thread, these gold plates had different measurements of thicknesses so I reposted the clutch for sale.
I indicated all of this in the sale add. However, I realized at a later date that the packing slip from RPS indicated that not only were the discs out of spec, but the pressure plate also had zero preload. Once I read this, I took the sale ad down because I don't screw people.



Sometime after this, the seller iniated a chargeback through paypal for the 200 dollar refund having never contacted me. Even though I provided proof to paypal that this 200 dollars was a refund that we agreed to, I still lost the chargeback. I tried to file a paypal claim then that my item arrived significantly different than described, but so much time had passed that it was closed immediately by paypal.

At this point, I was so fed up, I got rid of the clutch. I didn't want to see it, look at it or deal with it anymore.

After I cooled down and after doing some research, I was left with no option other than to file a chargeback with my credit card. I was out 840 dollars plus 90 in shipping to and from RPS and figured it wouldn't hurt. I have never filed a chargeback before on any credit card nor do I have any negative feedback on any car forum that I am on so this was new ground for me.

I provided all of the emails exchanged between the seller and I and all of the paypal activity and the credit card filed in my favor. Only at this time after the chargeback was completed, did the seller ever ask for the clutch back. I feel that I have done nothing wrong through this process and am now being accused of being a scammer.

To Summarize, here are the footnotes

Buy clutch
sent clutch to RPS
told by RPS clutch needs a rebuild
asked seller for a refund and was denied
agreed to a 200 refund
Seller did a charge back through credit card on the 200 dollar refund without ever talking to me via any method
I lost the charge back even with all exchanges of emails showing it was a refund
Left no other option than to do charge back for full purchaser
was granted the refund and now am being accused of being a scammer
 

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Here is all of the communication I recieved from the seller up until he asked for the clutch to be shipped back after the chargeback was granted. Read from the bottom up.


Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 7:11 AM
Jan 18
Message starred
FROM james leahy TO You
Re: Clutch
Hide Details

From

james leahy

To

Brandon Schaffer

Funds were sent via paypal. Nice doing business.

James

From: Brandon Schaffer <...Removed...>
To: james leahy <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Clutch

James,

Thank you again for getting back to me. I personally do believe the billet upgrade is necessary due to the many cases of damage from the straps breaking but that is neither here nor there. I will accept the 200 dollar refund as I believe that is the best we are going to do. If you can use the refund button on the transaction on PayPal please as it saves the fee and you have the option to put in a partial amount.

Do you still have the original pictures from the ad that you can send over to me? I am going to put it up for sale while at rps and see if someone wants to buy it and then deal with rps and MVP directly.

Thank you.

Brandon

----- Reply message -----
From: "james leahy" <[email protected]>
To: "Brandon Schaffer" <...Removed...>
Subject: Clutch
Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:55 am


Brandon,
Again I understand your situation but will have to disagree with your decision on this being the “fairest deal for both of us.” My time is very valuable and holds priority. As stated before respectable time was spent to insure all details were present in my for sale ad allowing any buyer to have the needed information to make an educated purchase decision. All details were provided in the original for sale ad and remain unaltered. I feel I did my part as a respected Supraforums seller. To aid in reducing your cost through RPS/MVP I wanted to remind you that this clutch never demonstrated any weakness and a billet upgrade is not mandated. There are many who oppose going non-billet but again there is no 100% failure rate. Because I am a fair person I am willing to offer you $200.00 towards your billet upgrade but based on the specs provided to RPS this clutch was still within spec during that conversation. Let me know.
Thanks,
James

From: Brandon Schaffer <...Removed...>
To: james leahy <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: Clutch

James,

Thank you for getting back to me. I am not sure what the best recourse is. Part of me thinks I should put it up for sale while it is at rps and let someone else buy the clutch from me and then pay rps to do the rebuild and billet upgrade. This is about 1650. Most likely, the clutch is only worth 500 to 600 dollars as you can buy a brand new one for around 2500. I have spent 95 in shipping both ways so that means I am into the clutch for over 900. So at 500, I am losing almost 400 dollars for a clutch I won't even ever use.

I would appreciate with you accepting the clutch back and refund my purchase price minus the amount it cost you to ship it to me and ill have to eat the 100 I paid to ship the clutch to rps and back. I will still lose 150 on this transaction and you would have the clutch back and not be out any money at all. I believe this to be the fairest deal for both of us.

Please let me know if this is acceptable and if not, what would you feel would be appropriate.

Brandon

----- Reply message -----
From: "james leahy" <[email protected]>
To: "Brandon Schaffer" <...Removed...>
Subject: Clutch
Date: Tue, Jan 15, 2013 6:40 pm


Brandon,
I apologize for my late response to both emails you sent. This is not my primary e-mail and due to a busy schedule with the flu being passed around my household I have not been on-line regularly. I understand your concerns about the clutch you purchased from me. As my ad states I was selling a used RPS Carbon Carbon clutch. The clutch had only seen 8k miles of use. I used this clutch in the summer of 2011 for 5k miles and this recent summer of 2012 for 3k miles. During this time the clutch provided no issues. Considering my power level goals increase I decided to sell the clutch and purchase another that best suites my setup. I spec’d the clutch, providing those numbers in the for sale ad to provide any potential buyer the opportunity to determine if this was what he or she were looking for. These specs were listed:
"Specs of carbon plates are:
Clutch cover: 0.728
Cover disc .2624
Floater: .2725
Flywheel disc: .2752
Flywheel: .0949"
Prior to posting up the for sale ad I went the extra mile and contacted RPS. I provided the same information listed above and was told “the clutch was still in spec.” Once I was provided this information this was my green light to post the clutch on Supraforums. If you look at my seller rating history you will see I’m not one to produce bad transactions and this is illustrated when I worked with you on the pricing. I can understand your frustration but I put everything on the table to avoid any potential issues as I always do. Please let me know what it is exactly you’re asking for and we may be able to come to a resolution.
Thanks,
James

From: Brandon Schaffer <...Removed...>
To: james leahy <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Clutch

AJ,

I have a problem with the clutch I bought from you. As soon as it arrived at my house I turned around and shipped it to RPS (through MVP) for a billet upgrade. Well I just got word from Kevin at MVP that RPS is stating the clutch needs a rebuild. I was willing to pay the 800 knowing I was going to fork over another 450 for the Billet upgrade and another 90 in shipping charges there and back, but had I known the clutch needed a rebuild, I wouldn't have bought it. I am waiting to hear from Kevin how much more a rebuild is going to cost (I think it is like 1100 on top of the billet upgrade).



You have been a supra forums member for a long time and I am hoping that we can work together to come to an agreement on how to move forward with the clutch.



Brandon

From: james leahy <[email protected]>
To: Brandon Schaffer <...Removed...>
Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Clutch

Item has been shipped via Fedex with direct signature due to it's value.

Tracking number : 101902415000010

Please send me an e-mail once the item is received and leave feedback as I will do the same.

Thanks,

A.J.
From: Brandon Schaffer <...Removed...>
To: james leahy <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: Clutch

Already sent.

----- Reply message -----
From: "james leahy" <[email protected]>
To: "Brandon Schaffer" <...Removed...>
Subject: Clutch
Date: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 3:22 pm


Ok sounds good. Just send me an e-mail once the funds are transferred to insure quick shipment. Please leave feedback once your item is received. as I will do the same.

Thanks,
A.J.

From: Brandon Schaffer <...Removed...>
To: james leahy <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Clutch

I'll take it. I'll send cash tonight.

Brandon.

----- Reply message -----
From: "james leahy" <[email protected]>
To: "Brandon Schaffer" <...Removed...>
Subject: Clutch
Date: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 2:15 pm


Honestly if you were closer I would shift my pricing but the price I have listed seems fair considering I'm absorbing the Paypal fees @ $33.15, estimated shipping of at least $25.00 (this does not include packaging supplies).As noted in the ad this clutch includes the ARP flywheel bolts, throw out bearing and snap rings. But since I'm in the holiday spirirt I will knock $10.00 off making it an even $840.00 shipped including Paypal fees or you can send the funds as a gift and this will avoid me paying paypal fees. If you go this route you can take the $33.15 off. If you send payment via Paypal tonight to [email protected] I can have it shipped with a tracking number by tomorrow. Look over my buyer/seller rating and you will see there is no risk.

Thanks,

A.J.
From: Brandon Schaffer <...Removed...>
To: james leahy <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: Clutch

I am in the western Chicago suburbs.

----- Reply message -----
From: "james leahy" <[email protected]>
To: "Brandon Schaffer" <...Removed...>
Subject: Clutch
Date: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 11:03 am


Where are you located?
From: Brandon Schaffer <...Removed...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 6:46 PM
Subject: Clutch

I'll give you 800 shipped via paypal for the carbon carbon clutch. Let me know and I can get you cash tonight.
 

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To Kilurv8 - From the outside looking in, you're a Scammer. It is simple logic that in order to receive a refund/money back you return the given item. No one trashes a part and ask for their money back. That is fraud.
 

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To Summarize, here are the footnotes

Buy clutch
sent clutch to RPS
told by RPS clutch needs a rebuild
asked seller for a refund and was denied
agreed to a 200 refund
Seller did a charge back through credit card on the 200 dollar refund without ever talking to me via any method
I lost the charge back even with all exchanges of emails showing it was a refund
Left no other option than to do charge back for full purchaser
was granted the refund and now am being accused of being a scammer
You left out to key points. You posted the clutch forsale stating it was good after talking to RPS. Secondly you threw out the said clutch.

:)
 

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If you read through the entire thread, I posted it for sale, then once I actually read the packing slip from RPS where it stated there was zero pre-load, I took it down from being for sale. I don't sell bad parts.
 

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Kilurv8 - Let me get this straight... You buy a clutch from a seller that gives you the plate specs, then you turn around and try to resell the same clutch claiming that the discs are "less than half used" and has 8-10k miles of life left". All this AFTER you got word back from RPS (as per your for sale ad says). then you do a charge back because the clutch isn't as expected??? I simply don't follow.

Also what do you mean "got rid of the clutch" ? Are you saying you threw away a clutch that you paid $840 dollars for? BEFORE you did a charge back?




To me this is very simple. You bought a product without knowing or understanding what you were getting into. You bit off more than you could chew. Then you cried no joy and ran to get your money back. End of the day you received a product and refused to pay for it. like a cartoon character cheating a vending machine with a coin on a string. that is a scam. YOU ARE A SCAMMER.
 

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If you read through the entire thread, I posted it for sale, then once I actually read the packing slip from RPS where it stated there was zero pre-load, I took it down from being for sale. I don't sell bad parts.
A.) Why does the thread now say hold, as if you have plans to relist? Why not ask a moderator to delete the thread B.) Why did it take you over a month to edit said forsale thread?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
My objective to the creation of this thread is to allow my fellow forum members know how you operate. I'm not here to argue. I would like one of two options. Either correct my negative PayPal balance or ship the clutch back in it's sold condition. Everyone on here will agree that I'm not asking much of you. One or the other. Just not both.
 

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You are missing a few things sickazz7m. I bought the clutch with a description that it was in useable condition. When it was inspected by RPS, I was informed it was not in usable condition. I asked for a refund and was told no (see emails). We agreed to 200 dollar refund to bring the clutch into a price range that for me to resell that I wouldn't lose as much money (didn't have the money to spend on a full rebuild or a new one). I posted it for sale while at RPS and no one bought. I then had them send it back. I took it out of the box and inspected/measured plates and posted it for sale based off the information I was provided on this thread http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sh...-triple-c-c.-Clutch-plate-disc-thickness-spec I listed it for sale again. Once AJ initiated the charge back on the 200 dollars, I started gathering information to provide to paypal and that is when I actually opened the packing list from RPS and saw the information about the pre load. At this time is when I took down the for sale ad (check the dates of the chargeback initiaiton and the taking down of the sale ad). I provided all the information to paypal but still lost the chargeback on the refunded 200 dollars.

Charge back for the 200 dollars was filed by seller on Feb 22nd (mind you the seller made no attempt to contact me before initiating the chargeback)
I changed the add to Hold on the same day, Feb 22nd when I read the packing slip from RPS.
Chargeback was granted on March 24th,
I initiated my chargeback on May 5th


Had you have been a stand up seller and accepted the return in the first place (which I offered to eat my shipping costs to and from RPS, and what you outlaid in shipping fees to send it to me) or hadn't done a chargeback on the refunded amount which we agreed to (which you never contacted me about prior to initiating), we wouldn't be in this predicament. I feel as though I have done nothing wrong and followed all proper protocols and then some in this transaction and paypal and my credit card company agree. I am still out over 100 dollars in this transaction plus all of the agony and time I have had to spend defending my self to the sellers credit card company and then proving my case to mine. I feel that the seller was the unscrupulous one selling an unusable clutch as usable, refusing to accept the return, and then reniging on an agreed upon partial refund.
 

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I do feel the OP's, out a clutch AND money. If you threw away the clutch or sold the clutch, why did you do a charge back? To me that is just wrong and leaving the OP out in the dust.
 

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You threw out a $2,500 product because it needed a $1,200 rebuild?

Whether the seller knew the clutch was bad or not, as per Paypal's item not as described terms you are obligated to return the product to the seller after receiving a refund. As stated in paypal's policy he can reverse it on you if you can't provide a return, then you would be out a clutch, a paypal account, and your money. So if he really was a scammer, you threw out your only physical evidence of such.
 

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Buyer why would you do a chargeback and then dispose of the actual item, doesn't make sense to me. Honestly, I doubt you actually threw away the clutch.
 

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Yes I got rid of the clutch because I was into it for 840 + 100 in shipping to RPS. Then if you throw the 1200 dollar rebuild on top of it (which mind you I didn't have to spare), and then the 450 for the billet upgrade, I am above the cost of a brand new clutch. And lets say I put the 1650 plus another 100 in shipping into the clutch, what would a freshly rebuilt RPS clutch go for on the used market, 1800 tops? So I would be into the thing for 2690 dollars. If I sold it for the 1800, my net loss would have been 890 dollars which is where I was to begin with.

I am not accusing anyone of being a scammer. I am saying that the seller acted in an somewhat underhanded fashion by not standing behind his sale and accepting a return and providng a refund (and I even said he could keep how much he paid to ship it t me), and then recinding his refund we agreed to.

I sell parts on here all the time. One of my latest parts arrived at the sellers house and no longer functioned. After some testing, I agreed to accept the return and I refunded the full amount. I didn't offer to give him 20% back and then do a chargeback on the refund, and then only after I have a chargeback filed on me, ask for the product to be sent back after 6 months. It doesn't work that way. Why would anyone ever accept a return if you can put someone through this, and then only once found to be in the wrong, get your part back with no consequences. I agree, the seller is in a bad situation, but so am I. I am out 6 months of time, over 100 in shipping, aggravation and frustration.

I unfortunately don't believe we will ever see eye to eye or come to an agreement on who was in the right/wrong. I can sleep with a clear conscious as I honestly feel as I have done nothing wrong through this entire process and that I feel as I am the victim here. There was no intent to rip off the seller. I believe I have show more than enough evidence to prove that this was not intentional and it came down to my last option to resolve this issue.

This is the only negative transaction I have ever had on any car forum and I do not want it to ruin my reputation but I refuse to be taken advantage of.
 

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You should have given his clutch back regardless of the condition before you do a charge back. It doesn't matter if the clutch turned out to be nothing more than a paper weight. You got your money back, give him the clutch back. Simply 'getting rid of it' doesn't mean anything. You still got his stuff. I understand your frustration of receiving something that you feel like was not what was advertised but taking his money and his clutch was handled poorly. Look at it this way, if you go to Toyota and bought some part and it was broken, do you get to keep the part regardless if you can use it and get a refund? No man you give it back and get your money back. Once you give back the clutch then you can work out some sort of compensation about the time and money that was wasted.

Brandon do the right thing man. Even if we all chalk it up that the OP wasn't up front about the condition of the clutch, how you handled getting your money back is really making you look bad. Your reputation on this board will take a hit. Work something out to resolve this.
 

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The difference with your analogy is that I asked to return it and was told no. If you bought a clutch from toyota, they refused to accept it for return after never being used by you, you filed a claim with your credit card company and they found in your favor, do you go give the clutch back to toyota. No, if it is unusable, you throw it away because otherwise it is a paperweight taking up space in your garage. That is more of what happened in this situation.
 

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If you bought a clutch from Toyota and you had to get your credit card company involved, i feel quite confident that someone would ask to see the product to determine what made it unusable since now you have a 3rd party involved in the transaction. Otherwise, this type of loophole would be a blatant issue with every merchant that accepts Visa, Mastercard, AMX, etc...

While you might feel the clutch was unusable, its still a very pertinent part of this transaction. simple as this, you were given an unacceptable product. you filed with paypal to get the money back, and then you "disposed" of this product. while you say you trashed it, there's no verification. in the end, it can look as simple as you end up with your money and the clutch and the seller is out both items. if he sold junk, give him his junk back and let him get stuck with the junk product. The minute you trashed the clutch, you tossed away your only reasonable evidence that he sold you a bad product for your money. You can't get your money back at any retail place because it was junk if you tossed the item away. you have to bring the bad parts back to them, thats how commerce works. Unfortunately, its your reputation that is being questioned now due to your actions. From an outsiders perspective and i believe everyone here can agree, this looks very shady on you. You can choose to stand by how you feel and thats completely your right, but in the end, no one on this forum will do much business with you going forward because of the outward perception that you "scammed' a seller.
 

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If you bought a clutch from Toyota and you had to get your credit card company involved, i feel quite confident that someone would ask to see the product to determine what made it unusable since now you have a 3rd party involved in the transaction. Otherwise, this type of loophole would be a blatant issue with every merchant that accepts Visa, Mastercard, AMX, etc...

While you might feel the clutch was unusable, its still a very pertinent part of this transaction. simple as this, you were given an unacceptable product. you filed with paypal to get the money back, and then you "disposed" of this product. while you say you trashed it, there's no verification. in the end, it can look as simple as you end up with your money and the clutch and the seller is out both items. if he sold junk, give him his junk back and let him get stuck with the junk product. The minute you trashed the clutch, you tossed away your only reasonable evidence that he sold you a bad product for your money. You can't get your money back at any retail place because it was junk if you tossed the item away. you have to bring the bad parts back to them, thats how commerce works. Unfortunately, its your reputation that is being questioned now due to your actions. From an outsiders perspective and i believe everyone here can agree, this looks very shady on you. You can choose to stand by how you feel and thats completely your right, but in the end, no one on this forum will do much business with you going forward because of the outward perception that you "scammed' a seller.
Did you miss the part where I sent the clutch to RPS (the manufacturer) and they are the ones who told me the clutch was in need of a full rebuild and unusable due to no preload? I even provided a screenshot of the packing slip from them where this was indicated. So based off your first statement, I already did that.

I understand that the natural reaciton is to side with the seller first, but put yourself in my shoes. You buy something and it comes broken. You are refused the ability to return it but come to an amicalbe agreement. Then the refund you were given gets recinded. Now you are holding something which was expensive, plus the fees to have it looked at by the manufacture and it is basically worth nothing (see logic above about rebuild costs and fair market value of used RPS clutches). What would you do? I was out the money with a clutch that the seller refused to accept in return (this fact is key). The clutch was useless to me and worth nothing on the used market. I got rid of it and then after much research, decided to file the chargeback. That is the logic and that is what happened.

I am done here.
 
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