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Discussion Starter #1
I wounder how the people over at Calty felt? It must have sucked when they were bind slighted by the Broke Motor Wagon "partnership". Imagine spending all that time to make something as beautiful as the FT1 and hoping Toyota would green light it with the LC platform, but only to be told to scale it down because it needed to fit over a Z4 platform and to tack on 8 fake vents.


Were there any concessions that had to get designed out of the production car?
The car got scaled down quite a bit. FT-1 was a big car. One reason was for being on the show car stage. We wanted drama and impact. Motor shows are about theater and creating excitement. But the other reason it was big was we knew the LC500 was coming, and we thought maybe, just maybe, they could build it on that platform. At that time we didn’t know there was any BMW arrangement underway, so the big challenge was how to take FT-1, which was a pretty sizable car, and compress it down to the actual production package that became Supra.
 

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That really sucks for the designers that worked hard on the concept. I never got to see the concept in person but just from pics/videos it looked amazing. The MKV looks awkward in pics/videos, although it does look better in person the overall design does not fit the proportions making it look awkward from certain angles. More of a bootleg version of the FT-1.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I don't even blame Tada, he had to work with what he was given. I blame wanna-be master race car driver Akio for conceiving and approving this abomination. Reading farther into the so call "partnership" Tada actually wanted to make a mid-engine sports car, and BMW said sure. But wanna-be race car driver CEO said no, had to be front engine...

If they wanted to work with BMW on a sports car then fine, the mid-engine that Tada wanted to built could have been a prefect MR-2 replacement to compete with the Boxster & Cayman. Same type of deal could have been made where BMW would have gotten a soft top while Toyota a hardtop coupe. Now after seeing the new C8 the wanna-be race car driver probably wished he had listened to his chief engineer.

Like Gary said, a reskin LC would have preferred by almost anyone with a working brain. Just shorten the chassis by a few inches and cut out some of the luxury features to save on weight and I think most would have been happy. For goodness sake, Toyota did the same sh*t for past Supras and Soarer/SC.

Toyota fan boys have praised Akio as a savior that brought back sporty & sports car to the Toyota line up. B*tch please, projects like the IS-F, LFA, and 86 were already done, under developed, or in the planning phase before your ass became CEO in 2009. What has Akio really done? Made an ugly ass Prius which was delayed because it didn't meet your styling approval (the final product is a real looker 🤮), killed the GS with no replacement planed 😟, and lastly as we all know about the hardtop reskin Z4 that is parading around as a Supra. 🤮:sick:🤮:sick:🤮:sick:🤮 Great job wanna-be race car driver CEO. Please quite your daytime "job" before you do anymore damage. 😅😂🤣
 

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If they wanted to work with BMW on a sports car then fine, the mid-engine that Tada wanted to built could have been a prefect MR-2 replacement to compete with the Boxster & Cayman.
Toyota and Subaru should do this. They should have done this 20 years ago when Toyota came out with the MR-S.
 

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I was in the video made for Akio as part of an impromptu conversation I had with the Calty marketing director at SIV2012. Three years later, I was instrumental in bringing the FT-1 to SIV2015.

As noted in the article, the FT-1 received an incredible reception on the show circuit and virtually everybody, including the mainstream press, thought they were looking at the real MKV Supra.

The popular reception for the FT-1 forced Toyota's hand. The joint venture sports car was never intended to be the new Supra but the geniuses at Toyota decided they could fit a size 10 foot into a size 8 shoe, with 100% BMW underpinnings, and here we are.

To add insult to injury, Toyota pours salt in the wound by developing and producing a 4-cylinder MKV, a car almost certain to put an artificial cap on the maximum power of the 2gen 86.

There were rumors that car would get the turbocharged 2.4L boxer turbo motor from the Subaru Ascent. If memory serves, that motor makes about 260 hp, and many in the 86 community were hoping for at least 275 hp. Some of the real crazies were hoping for 300 hp, but I don't see that happening and Best Car of Japan is saying the Ascent motor will be aspirated.

So, from where I sit, one fuck-up begets another. Down the road, I expect the gestation of the MKV to be a business school case study on how to fuck up a legacy in ways previouly thought not possible.


Ken.
 

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Never underestimate Toyota's ability to pigeon hole vehicles in a way not to impede on the sales figures of others in their lineup.

Forbid just building a really good vehicle for the sake of just that.

Too many layers of corporate grubby little fingers over everything.
Toyota likely will continue down this same path for quite some time.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Toyota and Subaru should do this. They should have done this 20 years ago when Toyota came out with the MR-S.
Good luck with that. Toyota had to fight tooth and nail to just get them on board with the 86/BRZ. So I doubt Subaru would want to make another niche product with even a smaller pool of potential buyers.
 

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I was in the video made for Akio as part of an impromptu conversation I had with the Calty marketing director at SIV2012. Three years later, I was instrumental in bringing the FT-1 to SIV2015.

As noted in the article, the FT-1 received an incredible reception on the show circuit and virtually everybody, including the mainstream press, thought they were looking at the real MKV Supra.

The popular reception for the FT-1 forced Toyota's hand. The joint venture sports car was never intended to be the new Supra but the geniuses at Toyota decided they could fit a size 10 foot into a size 8 shoe, with 100% BMW underpinnings, and here we are.

To add insult to injury, Toyota pours salt in the wound by developing and producing a 4-cylinder MKV, a car almost certain to put an artificial cap on the maximum power of the 2gen 86.

There were rumors that car would get the turbocharged 2.4L boxer turbo motor from the Subaru Ascent. If memory serves, that motor makes about 260 hp, and many in the 86 community was hoping for at least 275 hp. Some of the real crazies were hoping for 300 hp, but I don't see that happening and Best Car of Japan is saying the Ascent motor will be aspirated.

So, from where I sit, one fuck-up begets another. Down the road, I expect the gestation of the MKV to be a business school case study on how to fuck up a legacy in ways previouly thought not possible.


Ken.
Interesting story. I wish they had been able to use the LC500 as a starting point rather than the Z4, but I'll take a I6 from BMW 1000/1000 times over a flat 4 from Subaru. Smooth and beautiful sound and feel vs. what sounds like an I4 missing a cylinder.
 

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I would've love to see a majority of the FT-1 come to life on a LC500 chassis, using an existing Toyota TT V6 from a LS500.

Put a strong drivetrain in it with a Toyota TVD diff, a 6MT, and an optional clutch style automatic that is currently available in the Lexus F cars.

Put a modern interior resembling the fighter jet cockpit of the Mkiv, and employing a weight reduction program like Toyota would've done when they were transitioning from the MKIII to the Mkiv.

Offer it in different interior/drivetrain/brake packages like the C8 to make it more attainable for those who would need it.

And lastly, being able to compete with modern competitions and its long standing arch rival, the GTR.
 

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As noted by others, Shant in particular, these are the people whose hearts were crushed by the Toyota/BMW joint venture and in-house decision making:



A couple pics from SIV2015, one of the car by itself and one of Saad Saad and I and his 1500+ whp MKIV Supra race car. The Calty marketing director, a New Zealander and the guy standing directly behind the FT-1 in the first pic of the graphite gray car, thought including Saad's car, and the whole SIV2015 ethos, would demonstrate to Akio, once and for all, the potential market for a MKV Supra 17-years (at that time) since the last MKIV was imported into the USDM.





We often hear that "pics do not do justice" to whatever car is being described. In the case of the FT-1, this statement is absolutely true. In person, the car is breathtaking, with my own reaction to it being akin to viewing the Lamborghini Countach for the first time at its debut at the Los Angeles International Auto Show several decades ago.


Ken.

P.S. Sam (Boost Wang), you hit the nail on the head with your description of what could have been and should have been.
 

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Its been a full year.....and im STILL shaking my head in disbelief the same way as i did the first time i found out what fuck up Toyota did by replacing this masterpiece with clownish Zupra. I STILL cant understand the brain behind this decision...im really trying...and i cant.
 

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BTW, I saw a video today that indicates the 2022 (IIRC) Lexus LX 570 and Toyota Land Cruiser will have the 3.5L TT V6, along with hybrid power. Mind you, without hybridization, the motor already makes 415 hp and 442 lb-ft in the LS 500. The next Tundra is also suppose to get a version of this set-up. The speaker in the video conservatively estimated 500 hp and 500 lb-ft, with the Land Cruiser/LX combo and the Tundra all slated to be significantly lighter than their current iterations (the Tundra is reported to get mid-30 MPG along with more power and lighter weight).

I mention all this because of Boost Wang's earlier post about this motor in a modified LC 500 chassis. Now, this motor in the LS 500 is next level in every respect, so I find it amazing Toyota did not use the MKV Supra as another company vehicle to amortize the cost of this motor across the upper end of its model ranges. This is what it did with the 2JZ-GTE in the Supra, Aristo and the Chaser, I believe. Rumors say there will be an all-Toyota A100 Supra (there's already a thread on this) so maybe there's still hope though I, personally, don't have any.


Ken.
 

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Indeed a kick in the nuts to those fine folks at Calty, who I must mention were really cool at SIV15. Their car was nothing short of breathtaking in person. I genuinely considered, briefly, halting work on my Mk3 to save up for the production version.

Interesting points you make Ken, on the idea that the 4-cylinder Mk5 might place an upper limit on factory power of the next 86 / BRZ. There's certainly precedent in the industry, see Miata / RX-cars, Camaro / Corvette, Cayman / 911, possibly others but those are the ones closest to my mind at the moment. Either way, a 250hp 86 I suspect would outperform a 4-cylinder Mk5 in almost every performance metric...

As for amortizing the 2jz, they certainly did so, but to my understanding the X-chassis cars (Chaser, Cresta, Mark II) only ever got the 1jz. The 2jz was in a LOT of JDM models though, Supra, Aristo, Crown all come immediately to mind, and I am almost certain I'm forgetting some.

If there's something good to come from this whole situation though, perhaps SOMEONE out there will figure out what NOT to do when naming new cars. However, considering that the Charger name was plastered onto an old Mercedes taxi, and the Mustang name was plastered onto a mommy toaster, I don't exactly have much hope here myself. :p
 

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I would've love to see a majority of the FT-1 come to life on an LC500 chassis, using an existing Toyota TT V6 from a LS500.

Put a strong drivetrain in it with a Toyota TVD diff, a 6MT, and an optional clutch style automatic that is currently available in the Lexus F cars.

Put a modern interior resembling the fighter jet cockpit of the Mkiv, and employing a weight reduction program like Toyota would've done when they were transitioning from the MKIII to the Mkiv.

Offer it in different interior/drivetrain/brake packages like the C8 to make it more attainable for those who would need it.

And lastly, being able to compete with modern competitions and its long standing arch rival, the GTR.
Isn't the Supra's original rival the Z and the 300zx. It was only associated with the R cause tuners put it on the level of the GTR? This video explains it better than me.
And if it is the GTR then most likely the rwd twin-turbo versions. The GR supra's main competitor is the Porsche cayman and the m2 competition. Which seems to be more of a track-oriented car than a whole top speed-oriented car. Unfortunately sports cars don't sell as much, especially with a company like Toyota. Ask someone if they would buy a $158,000 dollar car with v6 twin turbo and hybrid. with 573hp and 476 lb-ft. If they say yes ask them the same question but add if it was something like a honda. Most likely they would say no. Certain companies, especially german cars are known for their sporty cars. Most people know Nissan/Acura/Honda for their Grocery getter daily drivable reliable cars. Not for high power sports cars or supercars. So if they wanted to redesign the supra hypothetically, they need a lot of advertisement money. Ads back then were a bit different than now. Examples:
Look at car ads now, it's completely different from back then.
 

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If they say yes ask them the same question but add if it was something like a honda. Most likely they would say no. Certain companies, especially german cars are known for their sporty cars. Most people know Nissan/Acura/Honda for their Grocery getter daily drivable reliable cars. Not for high power sports cars or supercars.
Anyone that knows anything about cars would see the 'made by Honda' bit as a selling point. German cars are broken shit past warranty, and dumb expensive to repair. Need special tools and scanners and shit. You can tear down a Japanese car with a handfull of wrenches, and their sports cars are often so overly engineered that you can double or triple the factory power and still have a reliable daily driver. Honda CTR, ITR, and NSX are excellent cars built for racing. Nissan also has the Silvia, Fairlady, and GTR in trims built for racing. All of these cars in good condition today sell for more than sticker price in the 90s. If that isn't a testament to how good they are, I don't know what is.

Regarding the marketing 'rivalry', The Datsun Z was made for Nissan North America, and it put Japanese sports cars on the map in the USA. There were no initial plans to sell it in Japan. The Supra was Toyota's answer to the Nissan Z cars, and marketed that way in North America. The GTR was never sold in the USA, so there would be no basis to make it a competitor in marketing.
In Japan, they compare the Supra to the GTR because of both of them being 'gentleman agreement' cars, flagship cars that can make insane power, and competitors against each other in JGTC. The 300ZX was only used in the first two seasons of the JGTC, and they were IMSA GTS cars.
 

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Anyone that knows anything about cars would see the 'made by Honda' bit as a selling point. German cars are broken shit past warranty, and dumb expensive to repair. Need special tools and scanners and shit. You can tear down a Japanese car with a handfull of wrenches, and their sports cars are often so overly engineered that you can double or triple the factory power and still have a reliable daily driver. Honda CTR, ITR, and NSX are excellent cars built for racing. Nissan also has the Silvia, Fairlady, and GTR in trims built for racing. All of these cars in good condition today sell for more than sticker price in the 90s. If that isn't a testament to how good they are, I don't know what is.

Regarding the marketing 'rivalry', The Datsun Z was made for Nissan North America, and it put Japanese sports cars on the map in the USA. There were no initial plans to sell it in Japan. The Supra was Toyota's answer to the Nissan Z cars, and marketed that way in North America. The GTR was never sold in the USA, so there would be no basis to make it a competitor in marketing.
In Japan, they compare the Supra to the GTR because of both of them being 'gentleman agreement' cars, flagship cars that can make insane power, and competitors against each other in JGTC. The 300ZX was only used in the first two seasons of the JGTC, and they were IMSA GTS cars.
2ND Part I can agree with. But are we going to assume that most of the people who buy cars knows anything about the car community. Heck one of the reason why its so popular is because games like fast and furious and nfs for example featured them. But all these kids play fortnite now.
I'm also confused because for some reason there are some companies like tesla for example where I see it in every toyota twitter post. Is like for some reason people worship car companies like tesla like gods.
 

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Isn't the Supra's original rival the Z and the 300zx. It was only associated with the R cause tuners put it on the level of the GTR?

And if it is the GTR then most likely the rwd twin-turbo versions. The GR supra's main competitor is the Porsche cayman and the m2 competition. Which seems to be more of a track-oriented car than a whole top speed-oriented car. Unfortunately sports cars don't sell as much, especially with a company like Toyota. Ask someone if they would buy a $158,000 dollar car with v6 twin turbo and hybrid. with 573hp and 476 lb-ft. If they say yes ask them the same question but add if it was something like a honda. Most likely they would say no. Certain companies, especially german cars are known for their sporty cars. Most people know Nissan/Acura/Honda for their Grocery getter daily drivable reliable cars. Not for high power sports cars or supercars. So if they wanted to redesign the supra hypothetically, they need a lot of advertisement money. Ads back then were a bit different than now. Examples:
Look at car ads now, it's completely different from back then.

In the North American market, yes the Supra's only own japanese competitor was indeed the 300ZX, 3000GT, NSX, and the FD Rx-7, as the GTR was not available in the North America market.

However, in Japan that was a different story as the GTR has been available. All of these cars were routinely compared to in options, best motoring, hot version and street racing videos. Growing up, the word has always been the Supra vs the GTR as the big dogs of import. Especially back in those high speed Wangan days.

Remember the "Amuse Supra vs Mine's R34 GTR" video that's been floating around for at least a decade?
That wasn't even the actual context of the original video, but since the Supra and the Skyline were both in one video, that context was lost, as it became another "Supra vs Skyline" video.

Historically in motorsports, the GTR and the Supra also competed with each other, both in JTCC and JGTC as well. In 1989, the R32 GTR and the MKIII Supra Turbo A were both homologated to compete in this series.
In 1995 forward during the JGTC championship, you'll see that the Supra and Skyline took home the majority of the Team's championship.


And I would have to respectfully disagree that if Toyota were to take a more serious approach, it would have to be 100-150k+ just because Tada said so. That man is Serial Liar. Remember when he announced that the GT86's boxer engine gave the car the lowest center of gravity possible, and then claiming that the MKV Supra has an even lower center of gravity? Or how Mkiv Supra owners blew their engines immediately with their boost turned up?

Nissan and Chevy were able to build the 400Z and the C8, and come closely to the current MKV Supra's pricing without much major outsourcing. Speaking of parts outsourcing and looking into our own V160's from Getrag for example, it is a great transmission, but now we are all suffering from the parts shortage to be able to properly rebuild this box because it was a outsourced transmission. You can still get parts for the W58 and R154 from Toyota IIRC, but if it wasn't for the outsource, we probably wouldn't have this major problem keeping the box alive. Too much major parts outsourcing is bad for parts availability for us consumers. I can also picture a major parts shortage for the MKV in the late future because of their major outsource. It is not absolutely certain, but not good.


The Mkiv advertisement was most certainly not good I agree. IIRC, an aquaintance of mine even remembers stepping into a few Toyota dealership asking for the new MKIV Supra, but most of the employees didn't even know what it was. But times have changed and so has the internet.
 

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In the North American market, yes the Supra's only own japanese competitor was indeed the 300ZX, 3000GT, NSX, and the FD Rx-7, as the GTR was not available in the North America market.

However, in Japan that was a different story as the GTR has been available. All of these cars were routinely compared to in options, best motoring, hot version and street racing videos. Growing up, the word has always been the Supra vs the GTR as the big dogs of import. Especially back in those high speed Wangan days.

Remember the "Amuse Supra vs Mine's R34 GTR" video that's been floating around for at least a decade?
That wasn't even the actual context of the original video, but since the Supra and the Skyline were both in one video, that context was lost, as it became another "Supra vs Skyline" video.

Historically in motorsports, the GTR and the Supra also competed with each other, both in JTCC and JGTC as well. In 1989, the R32 GTR and the MKIII Supra Turbo A were both homologated to compete in this series.
In 1995 forward during the JGTC championship, you'll see that the Supra and Skyline took home the majority of the Team's championship.


And I would have to respectfully disagree that if Toyota were to take a more serious approach, it would have to be 100-150k+ just because Tada said so. That man is Serial Liar. Remember when he announced that the GT86's boxer engine gave the car the lowest center of gravity possible, and then claiming that the MKV Supra has an even lower center of gravity? Or how Mkiv Supra owners blew their engines immediately with their boost turned up?

Nissan and Chevy were able to build the 400Z and the C8, and come closely to the current MKV Supra's pricing without much major outsourcing. Speaking of parts outsourcing and looking into our own V160's from Getrag for example, it is a great transmission, but now we are all suffering from the parts shortage to be able to properly rebuild this box because it was a outsourced transmission. You can still get parts for the W58 and R154 from Toyota IIRC, but if it wasn't for the outsource, we probably wouldn't have this major problem keeping the box alive. Too much major parts outsourcing is bad for parts availability for us consumers. I can also picture a major parts shortage for the MKV in the late future because of their major outsource. It is not absolutely certain, but not good.


The Mkiv advertisement was most certainly not good I agree. IIRC, an aquaintance of mine even remembers stepping into a few Toyota dealership asking for the new MKIV Supra, but most of the employees didn't even know what it was. But times have changed and so has the internet.
How did they do that anyway, a way has to be done. Nissan apparently got their engines from the q60 and q60 400 red sport. In japan that would be the nissan skyline 400r and the base nissan skyline. C8 I'm completely unsure, i assumed that their experience and mass production of v8's allowed them to make it at a cheaper cost. Economies of scale i think its called. Toyota only has v6's, v8's, inline 4's, inline 3's, inline 5's for their modern lineup. And i dont think toyota is going to commit a subaru and put a 2jz in a new chassis.
 
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