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Discussion Starter #1
overcooking stock brakes

will be putting Castrol SRF fluid in

any recommendations for upgraded pad for stock calipers/rotors that is more heat/abuse resistant but still sorta rotor friendly.

for excessive street driving and light duty tracking

Hoping to put off stopteck kit for now

do you think a powerslot or other aftermarket rotor is beneficial over factory OEM rotor

muchos gracias:)
 

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I don't cryo my rotors but have read the Racecar Engineering articles on why and what it does and it makes sense and definitely makes rotors last longer and withstand greater thermal stress.

I whole heartedly agree on the Carbotechs. I use the XPs front and rear. I think they are fine for the street and are great for the track. Expensive yes, but rotor friendly and worth it. I go through rotors about twice a year anyway because of all the DEs. Same with r compound tires.

The biggie for me and you really do yourself a favor with this. Brake Ducts for your rotors. Major difference is performance and service life. No boiled brake fluids and it saves the service life of you whole brake system-rotors, pads, fluid, and calipers.

Barry H.
 

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You can skip the SRF IMHO, and use Motul 5.1, or 600 if you don't mind changing it every couple months due tom moisture pick-up. I second the XPs, they are the only pad I use anymore. Carl Byck
 

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I use Valvoline synthetic...fresh change at beginning of each track season and then drive with it through the winter.

The reason I say brake ducts as needed is that it really depends on your car, the track, and the ambient temps. Up here in the "always raining on my damn track day" Northwest I've never had noticeable brake fade on the stock brakes. Some of my friends with higher HP Supra's don't have problems either and they don't run brake ducts due to ground clearance/mounting issues....unless your running super-crazy boost the top speed on the main track up here is about 130 and isn't super-hard on the brakes though.

IMHO the biggest problem with the stock brake's longevity is the solid rotors and warping under high temps....in this case I've always wondered if blowing the air one-sided through the dust-shield vent (or lack of dust-shield) like most people do with DIY brake ducts actually might cause more warping problems in extreme situations than the extra cooling air helps with. The two-piece rotors that come with the Stoptech's and other kits seem ideal for heavy use. In place of that, cryo treating should help with warping and if the rotors last 2-3 times longer it easily pays for itself. I've only got one year of use on my cryo rotors so I'm not sure how long they'll last...but I'm hoping the results will be good.

Cheers,

-Derek S.
 

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Who did you use for the cryo treating? Also is there a particular spec with regard to the treatment to ask for, or is that the vendors call? Thank you, Carl
 

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Derek I suggest a note of caution as to your comments on "warped rotors" and whether brake ducting may actually contribute to "warping". Supra brake rotors are cast iron and are ventilated not "solid". According to a Stoptech tech article by the dearly departed but highly respected Carrol Smith, rotors do not "warp", instead you get a buildup of brake pad material at a "hot spot" and that causes the rotor runout and hot spot issue. Carroll Smith knew a lot more than all of us who post here and is a respected authority in motorsports via his several books. Who am I to disagree with him? Read the article:
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm

Sounds like somebody is not breaking in the brake pads and rotors right. Definitely "warped rotor" sensations means brake pad temps are getting up there and brake ducts could help.

Having air blow on one side of the rotor does not contribute to "warping" rotors in my experience nor have I seen it mentioned in any technical journals or "racing" books. Again I am no metallurgist but with a cast piece things don't bend they break (crack). Correct?

Even in cold temps you can get brakes pretty darn hot. I am not sure about your local track layout which may be conducive to lower brake temps but I know at Road Atlanta on a high 40s to 50 degree temp track day I could still get significant heat built up in the rotors. In my experience brake ducts are necessary for track work with a 3400 lb car. At the supra "mini-meet" at Road Atlanta in November (mid-sixties temp) the stock rotor, carbotech XP, ATE Blue, brake duct set up performed flawlessly and braking downhill down the long and fast back straight into the slow turn 10 chicane at Road Atlanta will put some heat into the rotors and pads.

While some people love Motul because it is great, higher temp but expensive fluid it also absorbs water quickly and you have to change it out more often. If you keep your brake temps down you may never get out of the high operating range of Castrol LMA or Valvoline synthetic which are both great fluids at a much cheaper price. Me I use ATE blue brake fluid. I have no issues with ripping my brake ducts off even though my eibach ers/koni coilover set up is pretty damn low to the ground. But then I occasionally have to be careful pulling into a driveway or parking deck.

Obviously there are differences of opinions and mine "ain't the gospel". My .02
Barry H.
 

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I have Cyro treated my rotors and run carbotech XP's motul 600 and no Backing plates and on hot days running in a turn 130 mph down to 80 I will start to fade a bit. I have made the choice to go with the Stoptech 14" fronts and stock cryo rears. I will post back as to the improvement in 2 week after a track day @ Sears Point/ Infineon race way. I have a set on New carbotech Xp's in the box if anyone want to throw me an offer. I will have to see what they cost me but I will give a discount due to the fact that I will not be going back to stock. I may have a slightly used set of front Cryo rotors that i will throw in for shipping cost only. bwill I think it was you who posted the brake duct mod. I tried this mod only to get to the end of my driveway wher they were ripped off due to the curb. Have you seen any that would replace the stock backing plate like the porsche systems I have seen?
 

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LOL. Sorry you brake ducts got ripped off. I have been running ducts for over two years and have only done it once or twice on a set up that is different than what I have now. Nothing that a zip tie in the trunk and some duct tape could not fix. One of my winter projects is to have backing plates built for the front rotors. A buddy of mine who builds race cars (and works on my car) fabricates inexpensive backing plates using what I guess is sheet tin used in ducting HVAC systems. He just builds it up to fit the application and they will blow directly into the center part of the rotor where the ventilation vanes are located, just like the expensive more chi chi backing plates. Cheap, custom, effective. When I get him to slow down to build them, I will post pics or whatever.
Barry H.
 

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Barry, your points are well taken....and I recognize the differences between locations and how the car's are driven.

A main factor I think is not the venting on the rotors, but rather the fact that they are single-piece. The wheel stud interaction on the rotor and the clamping forces that hold it to the hub contribute to warping...how much is from that versus localized hot-spots from the pad I'm not sure....but the rotor certainly acts as a big heatsink and air blowing on one side, but not the other...vs the effects of blowing it straight into the vents as designed is certainly debatable….I’m guessing any amount of additional cooling is beneficial. Two-piece rotors have a lot of merit for longevity under high-use...they overcome certain issues with solid rotors, but have design disadvantages too.

I use brake ducts on my car…mostly because I’m paranoid my 95Kmile caliper seals will catch on fire, not as worried about the rotors themselves.

Cheers,

-Derek S.
 

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Derek, I understand your response. As to ducting to keep caliper temps down if you have been a reader of this forum for a while I can recall Andi being a non brake duct frequent "cooker" of caliper seals on his Supra. Rotors being heat sinks, any time I can take the heat out via brake ducts yes, it is good. I did six or seven track events this year and about the same last year and I have never had issues with brake ducts. Obviously you are a fan of them as well. As you say...... cheers.

Barry H.
 
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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Q: going to the XP's will decrease "warping"/ie uneven deposition because they are rated at a higher temp rating...which is being exceeded with stock pads...eh.

your homemade brake ducts are taking in air below bumper level?

thanks again

edit: anyone recommend internet/phone vendors for Supra Carbotech pads
 

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You can get carbotech pads directly. I buy them here
http://www.carbotecheng.com/main.htm
If you say you are a mkiv.com list member I think you get 10% off. Here is a pic of the brake ducts. I don't use the 4in. "collector" hose anymore and keep it all 2.5in. high temp hose all the way using plenty of big zip ties. There is a trick at the rotor. You need to make a vertical "hanger" with a zip tie to vertically locate the hose. You zip off the control arms which has nice cutouts. The vertical piece I use is the control link of the sway bar. Good luck.
Barry H.
 

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Derek S. said:
Cryo treat new stock rotors and get carbotech Panther XP's or Plus...

Brake ducts if needed.

Cheers,

-Derek S.
Do you guys that cryo treat the rotors find someplace local or are there just a few national place that do this?
I have no idea if anyplace around me does that.:rolleyes: :(
 

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after so much credible endorsement, I hardly feel lie I need to say I've really liked the Carbotech Panther +'s...but I do. They do not make a set of pads for Stoptech brakes yet, so I am still fishing for my new pad setup. Right now, I am using pagget orange pads which do not have as high a temp range, but I have not over heated them with the stoptech kit yet. oh - I am thier 13" kit right now, and they are making me a 14" one. But they are trying to convince me I don't need them.

Several Grand Am cars that use thier brakes use the 13" setup - not the 14's. And the audi's weigh over 3000 lbs supposedly, the vehicles are compareable...

any thoughts?
 

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Barry-
I'd be really interested in that backing plate fab that ducts air directly to the center of the rotor that you mentioned earlier. Would you consider having more than one set made up? I'm also interested in the ducting you are using based upon your picture. Yours is a lot cleaner looking than mine!! It appears you "skinnied down" the size of the ducting before you made the bend toward the wheel. Do you have a picture of what you did at the rotor? I also zip tie mine to the control arm, but often wonder if during high speed if it moves around a bit and winds up not really blowing directly into the cutout. Its great to see how other folks have adapted this technique :)

I've kicked around getting a Stillen front lip which has nice big cutouts in it and running some ducting right up to it. My guess is that up toward the engine undercover there really isnt as much air velocity there and maybe only the bottom half of our ducts are really scooping up significant quantities. I guess its kind of a variation of what you had fabed up previously. I'm just not sure how much lower the Stillen lip is than stock for scraping purposes.

Turbomx5-
I too run the Panther+ and love them as well. Won't Carbotech make custom pads for applications? I thought I remembered them doing that. Not sure what kind of pricetag would come along with something like that, but I've wondered what kinds of pads you can get off the shelf on those big brake kits. Does seem like somewhat of a detractant if you are limited on pad choice.
 

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While this is my old set up, check out this link to an old thread where I posted pictures.
http://supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=93861
With the old set up you could actually take the 4 inch hose part off and put it on for track work. With the coilover lowered suspension I had to get rid of that. Now I am 2.5 high temp duct all the way to the front. The front end of the hose is in clean air now just below and flush with the chin spoiler on the car.

As to the backing plate, I would imagine that we migh keep just enough of the front dust shields to give us a mounting "plate" for the backing plate. When I talk to him about more specifics of its construction I will let him know there might be some interests by others. He has car work coming out of his rear but if it becomes worth his time then he might be interested. Another buddy of mine has the backing plates for his ITS BMW race car from Bimmerworld. They look very nice and are expensive (couple of hundred) but I don't car about that. Who can see my backing plates standing in the paddock? I want functional and inexpensive (those you have seen my anti-bling bling race wheels can attest to that). I will keep you posted on it. I need to bug him now in the "off-season" although he is prepping cars for the 04 race season.

Barry H.
 

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Here's some of the setup on my car. One of them shows the control arm zip-tie technique Barry was refering to.





Using the straight-tube like Barry would definitely be a better setup for you lowered suspension guys, since at stock height I still scrape the bottom plastic lips of these funnels driving around town during the summer when they are under the car. I never scrape on track though (heh-heh...unless I'm off track/on track ;)) This scraping screw's up the rock screen and I have to replace it twice a season usually...but it's pretty quick. If you look carefully in my signature pic you will see the ducts hanging under the car.

For people with a FMIC you can fit tubing and funnels in the side bumper vents, Derek W. did this on his OTC Supra...but you then have to cut BIG holes in the understray to route the tubing and people normally opt for smaller diameter tubing in that case.

Cheers,

-Derek S.
 
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