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Top Down.. Twins Spinnin'
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Discussion Starter #1
I have a serious problem...

Recently, i went to a shop to get my valve stem seals changed, along with a new waterpump, new timing belt, new titan cam gear, greddy pulleys, new drivebelt, and all new gaskets for cams, cam cover, thermostat, water bypass, etc...

I drove my car to the shop, without problems, boosting 18 psi, no noises whatsoever of knock or anything serious and i never have. I even gave one of the guys a ride there and they said it was pretty nice... SO my point is that the car was running perfectly fine before i got all this changed, besides the leaky water pump and shot valve seals.

I go to check out my car, and to pick it up today. When i got there they were finishing up, putting the drive belt on and mounting the radiator back on. It was time for the test fire, and when we started the car, I had instant rod knock.

Now my question is... IS THERE ANY WAY TO HAVE THE MOTOR KNOCK FROM CHANGING SEALS???

The shop did not take the head off, and they pressurized the cylinder to keep from anything falling in. They said they used 150psi of pressure on each cylinder.

The shop said that what happened is that since there is everything new for seals that the head sealed up perfectly, and since the block was "weak" that all the pressure from the motor moved to the block and made one of the piston rings/bearings blow out. Has anyone ever heard of any sort of problem like this? Im curious into whether this possibly could happen because it doesn't make sense to me but what do you think???
 

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Top Down.. Twins Spinnin'
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Discussion Starter #3
This is what i first asked them, but this is a steady knock... They said that if something was dropped then it would bounce around, and then shoot out the exhaust into the turbos and blow the turbos.. They also said they didn't lose any keepers or any parts but of course, i could be wrong. Plus while the motor was running, the idle slowed down and so did the knocking..
 

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Ive never heard of anything like that happening from new valve stems. Sounds like they may have taken your car for a joyride and possible messed something up.

Lawrence
 

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Top Down.. Twins Spinnin'
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Discussion Starter #5
I was there about everyday it was there for a week, and it was on the lift and it hadn't moved.. i could be wrong though. What could i do to test out if they purposely did this or if it happened itself?

OH yeah, the other thing i forgot to add...
When they said that they pressurized the cylinder and tried putting in the valve stem seal, that it would pop out because my valve guides are really bad and that my head was leaky. When they pressurized the cylinder they also said that they set the piston to BDC, but isn't it supposed to be TDC?
 

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From my experience a rod knock will not "Just" happen when you fire the car up. Either they forgot to put some oil in the car and let it run for too long, something is deffinately up. Do you know for sure it is a rod knock?

Lawrence
 

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Top Down.. Twins Spinnin'
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Discussion Starter #7
Well im not positive as we have not taken off the head, but the sound it was making would definately make you think it is... It is a loud, loud noise, steady, and it was sticking to the idle. It sounds as if it was coming from the top of Cyl #2...

I don't know if it helps, but they tried disconnecting the #2 igniter coil and it didn't help at all.
 

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You might want to recheck their work. Maybe they forgot to put something back on. I would take the valve covers off and have someone rotate the engine with a socket and rachet on the harmonic ballencer and check the cams to see if something is hitting in that area. Also you can get one of those mechanic stethascopes (dont think I spelled it right) and hear different parts of the engine to pinpoint the area. Listen to the valve covers and then put it on the oil pan see which is louder. If it is the oil pan then it may be a rod. My money is on the valve cover. Hope this helps.

Lawrence
 

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If it is a rod knock it would not be coming from the top of the motor.
What does it sound like? If it is a taping noise it is not a rod knock. The only way to explain how a rod knock sounds is exactly that, a knocking sound and won't go away at all coming from the bottom of the motor.
A bad rod bearing only occurs from a loss of oil to that bearing or in higher mileage motors. Maybe they started the car without oil in it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Well the knocking was so loud, and we heard it from both the top and the bottom and its just everywhere.

The oil was low when they first started it... Like barely any touching the dipstick.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The motor has only ~109,000 miles so this is why im thinking it can't just be a "coincidence" that it blew.
 

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All I can add is when you pressurize the cylinder to do the seals the piston will actually goto BDC....this is why you have to be a lil more cautious using this method as as sudden decrease or lose of cylinder pressure will cause the valves to drop into the cylinder.....

I am in agreement with the stethoscope....you have to pinpoint more where the noise is coming from.

IMO the shop should be troubleshooting the noise for you considering this did not happen when you brought the car to them and you had a shop witness...talk to them nicely and I am sure they will cooperate. I work at a motorcycle shop and if you approach it in a friendly manner "we" "they" are generally more suscepitable to helping you out....
 

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Drain teh oil you will be able to see little metal particles in the oil from teh rod bearing when draining... That would be your first and easiest way of getting a good idea its a spun bearing. Dont let the car leave teh shop leave without them fixing it for you.... at no expense to you
 

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Swapping the seals did NOT move pressure into the cylinder the way they described. Where was all this pressure going prior to the seals being changed? Check the mileage - they were most likely up to something with the car.
 

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BLKMGK said:
Swapping the seals did NOT move pressure into the cylinder the way they described. Where was all this pressure going prior to the seals being changed? :dunno: Check the mileage - they were most likely up to something with the car.

Jeeeezus....this is one of my biggest pet peeves. When will people realize that valve stem seals have ZERO impact on a compression test? Argh...sounds like another, "We botched up your motor, how can we put it back on you?" Ok....some things to consider:

They had to pull the tensioner in order to pull the T-belt. Did they remember to take the pin out after compressing/installing it?

Valve clearance *really* off. Won't really sound like rod knock but who knows. If they "accidentally" swapped around a few buckets, maybe that's what you are hearing.

Check your valve timing, make sure it's stil lined up, by the way.

See if you can either get a light down there or worst case, pull the crank pulley and lower cover off. It's not uncommon for people to drop bolts into the lower cover. Not retrieving them could lead to some damage.

Give that a shot. If they are indeed telling you that,

"what happened is that since there is everything new for seals that the head sealed up perfectly, and since the block was "weak" that all the pressure from the motor moved to the block and made one of the piston rings/bearings blow out."

than take your car elsewhere. These guys are bullshitting and/or are utterly clueless.

Ryan
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thank you everyone for your input.. This issue is really serious to me and i just didn't understand how in the hell this noise could come up after i brought it to them just to get seals done.

They said that they would take off the cam covers and whatever they did again to show me that they did nothing wrong but to me that wouldn't signify much. I know alot but i know nothing compared to what i need to for diagnosing a motor.

Would any local supra member want to come up to the shop with me on monday while they disassemble what they did and help me prove my case that this ISN'T MY FAULT!!! Common supra community! THEY WERE ABOUT TO CHARGE ME TO TAKE IT APART TO DIAGNOSE IT! Tell me how thats fair!?!?

Ryan23:: I will definately take those into consideration.. Check your PM please..

Another thing which was fishy but kinda makes sense. When they were working on the motor, pulling the D-belt off and taking the T-belt off, the little stuff; i was around the motor watching them without them saying anything. But when they got into popping off the keepers and valves, one of the guys told me to stop bothering them and i can't be around the motor. Since then i didn't feel so confident and i had a feeling of something like this, or feeling maybe a shop's insecurity?
 

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Did you see the motor running just prior to them going under the hood? No chance of a quick spin around the block before they dove in? Afterwards were you there for initial startup? Did they drive it all after doing the work? You're in Chicago right? Isn't there a pretty big Supra shop up there? I thought there were tons of Chicago guys around...?

IMO it would be a pretty huge coincidence for this to have occured after they worked on it without them having done anything at all to cause it. As it is they have already LIED to you concerning the valve stem seals causing the problem via additional cylinder pressure. If it comes down to a new motor DO NOT use them, I wouldn't trust them at all at this point.
 

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If a valve keeper fell in the cylinder it would not always bounce around and go out the exhaust. The head and piston are aluminum and the keeper is steel. Thus the keeper could become impregnated in the piston or head and there you go knock ,knock. How loud is the knock?
 

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SupraTT93 said:
But when they got into popping off the keepers and valves, one of the guys told me to stop bothering them and i can't be around the motor. Since then i didn't feel so confident and i had a feeling of something like this, or feeling maybe a shop's insecurity?
I, for one, hate having people standin over my back while I do anything. Work on a car, read a book, type on the internet... Just one of those things. I wouldn't personally hold that against them...

That being said, it almost sounds like they dropped a keeper into the cylinder, but, that's pretty hard to do unless they took all the plugs out. The few times I've done valve stem seals I liked ot keep the plugs in accept for the cylinder I was working on, and that hole was being used to pressurize the cylinder. They could've dropped a keeper into an oil passage, but that would lead to the pan and it would just sit in the pan...

If you do end up getting a new motor, I'd say tak eit elsewhere and when they disassemble it, see what they find...
 
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