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Discussion Starter #21
Thank you all for your input. It appears this pump can flow quite a bit. Typically I tune cars with 2x 450 pumps so this car was a bit unique.

ProPilot- Most people are PWM the first pump. The walbro 450 draws identical voltage as the factory TT Denso pump.100% stock wiring/ factory fuel pump ecu. (only works on US TT cars). Add a second staged 450 and you are good for 1100+whp. I have tuned several cars with this setup.


2) What is the wiring process for setting up the OEM fuel pump ECU? You don't run any larger wiring to the pump hanger? Even with 12GA wire to the pin on the connector of the hanger it still gets warmer than it used to. Maybe 10° above ambient after 2 minutes.

I am very interested in being able to PWM the primary down with my Infinity. That would be really nice. Can someone explain how that would work?
 

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How do you setup PWM control for such a job? I'd like to learn this one for the fun of doing it. I found a Hella solid state relay I could use. I guess PWM it's signal to turn on the relay and give it an independent power source? Or can the PWM be run as a ground? This is a new one for me to be honest. I don't have the factory fuel pump ECU because I have an NA. Also... It's fuel pump ECU is gone too lol so that's why I wired in a 12GA wire to the hanger pin; because it came from a standard relay.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
How do you setup PWM control for such a job? I'd like to learn this one for the fun of doing it. I found a Hella solid state relay I could use. I guess PWM it's signal to turn on the relay and give it an independent power source? Or can the PWM be run as a ground? This is a new one for me to be honest. I don't have the factory fuel pump ECU because I have an NA. Also... It's fuel pump ECU is gone too lol so that's why I wired in a 12GA wire to the hanger pin; because it came from a standard relay.
For an original TT car you just setup RPM x load table on your fuel pump PWM output. Super simple.

If you have an NA chassis you will have to use a large SSR. You will need a large diode too. Those are all wired in different configurations depending on the SSR.

In my Motec/ProEFI/Syvecs tunes it would be something like this:

247179
 

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I appreciate the information. I'm thinking I'll run the Hella. It's PNP to a standard relay and I can just control it on the output similarly to how you showed above. I'm not sure why more people aren't doing this or why it isn't discussed more. This seems like the way to go anyways from a pump longevity standpoint. Why run at 100% all the time? haha

I'm also curious which SSR you are using. The Hella seems really straight forward, but it is limited to 32amps. Should be enough but I was hoping to find a 40a. Also, where would the diode be placed and what diode do you recommend? I'm probably going to do this for my radiator fans as well. Seems like the proper way to do it.
 

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Yes it's an OEM pump. But the hellcat ECU uses pulse width modulation to regulate the duty cycle of the pump.
I'm fairly certain my AEM Infinity 712 doesn't have a PWM controller that works with these pumps. Atleast not out of the box. Therefore it's either On or Off, no modulation. I've seen first hand how hot these pumps get.

As for cavitation; as the fuel heats & expands there's a chance it could form air pockets/bubbles within the lines.

I've been told by both Jeff Tsai (owner of Powerdynamix) and Brian(owner of PHR) not to run this pump as a primary on a street car.
Brotato this has been enlightening for a lot of people I think. I talked to some folks, including AEM on how to control a solid state relay in order to do PWM control of the pump. On the Infinity software you can control the PWM on the Outputs tab and find the output that is controlling your pump or pumps. I'm using an LS to control my relays. So we can go to the table and set it to MAP and RPM and configure it that way.

I do miss these forums lol
 

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Ok so next question regarding PWM and SSRs - why is it so many people have them not last? I'm seeing a LOT of people having issues with them in PWM use. Sorry for being off topic here, but its a way to control the pump. It would be nice to be able to run both pumps 24/7 in case one ever fails, you can still limp home on the other pump. I've had this happen lol
 

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They get hot so they fail eventually
I don't exactly want something that fails running my pumps. Is it the heat or the actual cycling that runs them down? If it's the heat: why not run big heat sinks and fans to them?

And at what point is all of this just a bit silly? I've been running the 274 primary pump at full power do 2 years and never witnessed anything worthy of knock. Nothing. And I'm in SFL. To me I'm considering just running a fuel cooler in the return next to the fuel tank. Meh. If the pump dies in 10 years then fine. But a relay dying every year or being questionable about reliability doesn't seem to make me feel warm and fuzzy. Am I I've simplifying? Maybe.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I don't exactly want something that fails running my pumps. Is it the heat or the actual cycling that runs them down? If it's the heat: why not run big heat sinks and fans to them?

And at what point is all of this just a bit silly? I've been running the 274 primary pump at full power do 2 years and never witnessed anything worthy of knock. Nothing. And I'm in SFL. To me I'm considering just running a fuel cooler in the return next to the fuel tank. Meh. If the pump dies in 10 years then fine. But a relay dying every year or being questionable about reliability doesn't seem to make me feel warm and fuzzy. Am I I've simplifying? Maybe.
You seemed to be confused. JZ1 is referring to the fuel pumps running full tilt all the time. Solid State Relays are extremely reliable. They are used in almost EVERY new car on the road.

I PWM the fuel pumps and the fans every chance I can get. I don't know why you wouldn't. Just stay away from the Chinese SSR and you will be fine.

Crydom makes nice SSR if you are looking for a big one.
 

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You seemed to be confused. JZ1 is referring to the fuel pumps running full tilt all the time. Solid State Relays are extremely reliable. They are used in almost EVERY new car on the road.

I PWM the fuel pumps and the fans every chance I can get. I don't know why you wouldn't. Just stay away from the Chinese SSR and you will be fine.

Crydom makes nice SSR if you are looking for a big one.
Ok that makes sense. Would you care to share your SSR setup in a separate post so we aren't jamming up this thread and link it here? I do want to PWM my fans as well so this would be good to learn how to setup properly. I was considering the Hella since they are an OEM but if Crydom are good I'll go that way. Another friend of mine suggested them but he admits he went overboard with heat sinks and fans to keep them cool. These relays will be in my trunk. I don't need to be adding a significant amount of heat back there where my battery is located.

I also don't want some unreliable system powering my fuel pumps. That's my only concern. On my old red car I had issues with pumps melting wiring at the hanger (part of the twin pump wiring fails we've seen) and it was SUPER convenient to be stranded at a gas station with no way to get it to get fuel lol

The overboard friend of mine sent me this. It's a relay powered SSR lol. So the delay provides the power and switch on signal then the ECU uses LS to ground it in PWM.
received_1210403392488145.png
 

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Talked to my tuner a bit. Apparently the AEM Infinity can't supply enough output to PWM the pump(s) on its own. An external fuel pump controller is required.
I guess this isn't the case with a Motec.
I'll need to look into this when setting up a surge tank, I don't want the primary in-surge-tank pump @100% duty all the time.
 

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Talked to my tuner a bit. Apparently the AEM Infinity can't supply enough output to PWM the pump(s) on its own. An external fuel pump controller is required.
I guess this isn't the case with a Motec.
I'll need to look into this when setting up a surge tank, I don't want the primary in-surge-tank pump @100% duty all the time.
I talked to Pyng from AEM and he never mentioned anything like this. I hate when there's conflicting information like that lol

Here's part of the conversation and him suggesting it'll work perfectly:
Hi Jason,
"You can use a spare LS that already has a flyback. Should the spare you are using does not have one, you can definitely implement one.
As to the type, I am not sure, wiring is not my forte." I was asking about diodes and wiring differences.

"
You simply change the lowside output control table within your cal file.
It is currently set at 0/100 duty which means ON/Off
If you were to scale the X axis based on load instead of RPM, you could PWM it in a linear fashion." I was asking about the location of the PWM control and if we had it.
 

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Ok so next question regarding PWM and SSRs - why is it so many people have them not last? I'm seeing a LOT of people having issues with them in PWM use. Sorry for being off topic here, but its a way to control the pump. It would be nice to be able to run both pumps 24/7 in case one ever fails, you can still limp home on the other pump. I've had this happen lol
In an emergency instance where you are in the lurch, you'd likely be fine swapping the wiring from non-function pump 1 to capable pump 2 to get home safely.
 

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As chance would have it: I melted another OEM hanger lol last time I did that was 2012~ and I went through 2 connectors before I learned my lesson lol this time it took 2 years and melted one. Walbro updated their connector design to the pump itself and the connector was flooded with fuel. I'm sure this caused the heat that built up. What a shame.

Oh well. Radium hanger is in with both 525s and pressure holds exactly as it should now. So that's a plus.
 
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