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Has anyone tried this and noticed any difference or been able to turn the boost up? I will be going single soon, and being able to use what the turbo is capable of without running 100+ octane all the time is one of my concerns. From what I have heard just over 500rwhp is the limit for pump gas. I know some have dynoed way over that number on pump gas, but I have trouble believing it is something they would do daily. Could water injection raise the safe level to 550-600++?

Daniel
 

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Dusty's car at MVP I believe pushes around 650rwhp on 93 octane, at least that is what i believe he said. (Don't quote me though). On the water injection i can't help you with that, hope someone else can;)
 

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Daniel,

I'm going to get water injection on my single very soon(when my tax refund comes in :) )

I have been talking to the Syclone and GN guys about it and they Love it!!! They are also not tuning by the seat of there pants either. All are using scan tools and some are using data logging on stand alone systems to show the difference in timing, knock, cylinder pressure,A/F, and HP.

Most get severe knock and timing retard at about 13-16PSI depending on the setup(all running 92-93 octane) . Wiht water injection they are running fuel maps for 110 octane and getting no timing retard or knock!!!! All this while still runnning 93 on 20-24PSI of boost. I also found some information from a engineering manual about cylinder pressure and water injection in 4 stroke engines. It said that there is a point where fuel cannot, no matter how much, keep cylinder pressure down enough to keep away detonation. Water injection can though do to the cooling that happens in the cylinder.

I'm still deciding on what system to get. Either the SMC kit or the Aquamist kit.

-TY
 

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wut
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I am planning on getting the SMC this summer and trying it out.
Any idea where you are going to place the nozzle? I was thinking about welding into the flange (I have the Blitz SSBOV flange) that feeds into the throttle body. I am hearing from most of the TB guys that you want it right before the throttle body......
 

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I'm going to put the jet towards the bottom of that IC pipe(the one that leads to the TB).About 15 inches away. Most WRC teams who run water injection say that if you give it some distance before the TB it will also help intercool to charged air. The bigger droplets will help the "in-cylinder cooling". The GN guys run alot more alcohol and meth. than water. I think it might have to due with placement of the jet due to it being used for fuel just not cooling.

-TY
 

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wut
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Thanks for the info. Actually I was planning on doing a mix of water and alcohol versus just plain water so maybe being closer to the throttle body will be better for me.

Looks like you might have a kit sooner than me so when you do actually go through with the water injection, it would be great if you could post some pics of the install or at least give us some before and after results.
 

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red94tt said:
Thanks for the info. Actually I was planning on doing a mix of water and alcohol versus just plain water so maybe being closer to the throttle body will be better for me.

Looks like you might have a kit sooner than me so when you do actually go through with the water injection, it would be great if you could post some pics of the install or at least give us some before and after results.
FYI:
Methanol & aluminum make bad bed-partners.

I ran a mix for awhile, & upon disassembly for inspection [aftr ~4mnths], there was a whitish residue inside the TB. I then pulled the plenum, & the white substance gradually faded, the further you looked down the intake path. Inspection of the purpose-built alum tank also showed this residue.

I stopped using the mix [50/50], & no more residue.

The reason for inspection was that consumption dropped noticeably. The jet [0.031"] had clogged up w/the residue crap.
The methanol used was lab-grade.

I don't know what the GN/Syclone/Typhoon users do to avoid this, othr than using isopropyl instead. Don't they have alum intakes too? Or perhaps having it sitting in an alum [instead of plastic] tank was the cause.

Whatever. Just so you guys know.

-Larry A
 

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Red,

I'll be doing a write up with pics as soon as I get the kit. I think alot of stock fuel supra owners and even built fuel owners could gain some power from this.


Larry,

2 other owners have said the same thing about alcohol being a bit nasty. One guy has a supra and found that with a 50/50 mixture he had horrible misfiring problem. He went to a 90/10(so the tank wouldn't freeze) and had much better results. He was running 1.1bar with the computer taking alot of timing out and knock. He went to water injection and ran 1.4bar with no knock and the computer didn't pull "any" timing out.
The other was a skyline GT-R and he said that the methanol was too corrosive and threw the A/ F out of wack due to the super high octane. He did state though when tuned right the car was crazy, but didn't recommend meth. all the time.

-TY
 

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TYWRAP said:
Red,

I'll be doing a write up with pics as soon as I get the kit. I think alot of stock fuel supra owners and even built fuel owners could gain some power from this.

Larry,

2 other owners have said the same thing about alcohol being a bit nasty. One guy has a supra and found that with a 50/50 mixture he had horrible misfiring problem. He went to a 90/10(so the tank wouldn't freeze) and had much better results. He was running 1.1bar with the computer taking alot of timing out and knock. He went to water injection and ran 1.4bar with no knock and the computer didn't pull "any" timing out.
The other was a skyline GT-R and he said that the methanol was too corrosive and threw the A/ F out of wack due to the super high octane. He did state though when tuned right the car was crazy, but didn't recommend meth. all the time.

-TY
That timing comment is the one I hear most often, & one I can attest to, as well. I went as high as ~1.5Kg/cm^2 on pump gas, & it never felt more alive.
:)
Wideband AFs @ 1.35Kg/cm^2 were 12.5 to 1 @ 4500rpms, & stuck to above 12 to 1 thru 6000rpms, & the car ran like gangbusters. Plug inspection showed zero detonation. Not only that, the plugs were spotlessly clean. Of course, I've not researched the water's affect on wideband AF data...anybody?

I 1st used water injection on my Celicas in the late '70s/early '80s [yeah, I'm old], & I had zero problems w/methanol-water mix back then. Ran nozzles thru the lids of the Webers [carbs, oh my]. So, yeah, I can say that including methanol as a component of combustion was a kick in the a$$. He11, I ran ~6 more deg of base advance on a recurved 100% mech advance dist, & no detonation!

A couple other items of note:
1>
Keep an eye on plug gap, which I haven't seen mentioned yet, esp if you're running a colder plug. I won't make specific recommendations, but just be careful not to go too large. Experiment until you get the right compromise between decent idle, & no misfire up top. Maybe gap down just a hair at 1st. Actually, determining best gap would be no different than usual, except w/the knowledge that water injection is now part of the fray.

2>
Don't inject too much, or risk cyl wash. I've heard of one MkIV that ran two 1mm nozzles just pre-TB on an Aquamist sys, which is ~0.078". I run a 0.031" nozzle on a customized Spearco* kit & felt it was plenty. YMMV. As a safety precaution, I'd def up your oil chng frequency until it's just right.

* POS kit that HAD to be customized.

Sorry to ramble on so much. This is a mod I've used for years, & it's just so nice to see a group embrace it, rather than malign it, as so many have.

Good luck guys, & if all goes well, you'll enjoy the mod.

-Larry A
 

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Larry,

what turbo set-up are you running? big single? I'm running a T-78 on stock modified fuel, but only running 1.1kg/cm2.

I'm looking at the SMC kit any thoughts?
Maybe my own custom kit also with 2 aquamist jets . What jets would you reccomend. The mkiv owner who ran 2 1mm jets, did he have bore wash problems or any other problems for that matter?


TIA

-TY
 

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TYWRAP said:
Larry,

what turbo set-up are you running? big single? I'm running a T-78 on stock modified fuel, but only running 1.1kg/cm2.

I'm looking at the SMC kit any thoughts?
Maybe my own custom kit also with 2 aquamist jets . What jets would you reccomend. The mkiv owner who ran 2 1mm jets, did he have bore wash problems or any other problems for that matter?

TIA

-TY
If I told you what car I drive, I'd probably lose credibility here faster than a MkIV does 0 o 60. But I won't hide. See my sig. What can I say? I saw this thread & felt compelled to participate.

That said, yes I run a 'single.' Ha! LOL. A small single, in a fat car. I'll answer your queries anyway, since the car I drive should have no bearing on the quality of the information.

--------------------------

After examining the SMC kit, I noticed Mr. Chlupsa integrated sev features that I added to the Spearco kit. Namely, SS lines, an activation LED, amongst othrs. From there, the departure begins. His plastic tank addresses the alcohol issue [as do the SS lines], & he created a pretty fancy in-cockpit setup for controls. The most notable feature is the pump speed control, which is a nice feature for fine-tuning, & one I don't enjoy.

Given the engineering Mr. Chlupsa has done, I suppose its ~$350 price-point is a reasonable one. Look on the web. The # of DIY setups out there [with results] is quite impressive; so don't discount doing it yourself. I modded the Spearco kit to a point that any resemblance to the original, is faint, at best.

With all due respect to ERL, & their incredibly high opinion of their own systems [chk their price-points!], I think kits like this work just fine. Perhaps if I were building a race car, any 'additional' benefits ERL provides might be worth a longr look.

Water injection has been used since P-38s roamed the skies ovr Deutschland [& Britain :-], so its benefits don't require an over-engineered system to get the job done. He11, my entire website is powered by Notepad!

--------------------------

The MkIV gentleman I mentioned [Chip Schwartz], ran the nozzles too FAR from the TB, hence his disappointment in the
results, quote:
"The problem, at least in my experience, is that not enough water makes it's way to the cylinders if the jet is mounted more than 6" away from the throttle body. On my car the problem is octane, far more than the stock IC, which, IMO, is pretty damned good for a stock piece. No amount of intercooling can overcome pre-ignition once the knock rating of the fuel is passed."

SO, I have to adjust my prev commentary by saying that his issue was nozzle location, & using 2 nozzles was a step intermediary to his final setup. Later, he mounted a single 1mm nozzle near, or in, the TB; & IIRC, it worked per his expectations. Ergo, the cyl bore wash issue, was a moot one.

HTH.
 

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Larry,

Thanks for the really great info, BTW your car may not be a mkiv, but if I owned a MKIII I'd hope it would be as nice as yours.:)

So it was actually the distance from the TB. Cool. I was worried about the total jets i would need to run, but looks like going wiht my own kit will work out great. I'm going to use the tapped hole in my IC pipe where my NOS was. It's as closed to the TB as possible without being in the TB. I also found all the fittings I need to run the aquamist jets(which the GN guys say are really nice for good atomization)

What area are you from. There are some guys around here wiht some nasty mkIII's . I've seen 3 run low 11's. If your in the area stop by my shop.

Again kick ass info!!thnx

-Jon
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks all for the great info! Now, what is the best way to tune a car with water injection? Once I get the single on I will want to know what the boost limit is of my car on pump gas. How would I go about finding that out?

Larry....that is one bad ass looking mkiii! Your thoughts are very welcome.


Daniel
 
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i read a few places that running meth would actually clean your engine and make the inside very clean... but it sounds like you guys are having a negative experience running meth, has n e one heard of this cleaning effect besides me?
 

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ShadyMilkman,

It's not the meth that cleans the engine, it's the water that turns to steam in the cylinders. It's like a internal steam cleaning for you cylinders :) It's suposed to get rid of any carbon build up . Carbon build up does nasty things like raise compression and cause hot spots in the combustion camber.


-TY
 
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I use a 35/65 mix of denatured alky/distilled water and able to run 21lbs of boost on 91 octane. I was able to run a 26* chip on 93 octane with minimal knock (2-4* on the shift). I have tried water but it didn't have near as good results as the mix.
 

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TYWRAP said:
Larry,

Thanks for the really great info, BTW your car may not be a mkiv, but if I owned a MKIII I'd hope it would be as nice as yours.:)

So it was actually the distance from the TB. Cool. I was worried about the total jets i would need to run, but looks like going wiht my own kit will work out great. I'm going to use the tapped hole in my IC pipe where my NOS was. It's as closed to the TB as possible without being in the TB. I also found all the fittings I need to run the aquamist jets(which the GN guys say are really nice for good atomization)

What area are you from. There are some guys around here wiht some nasty mkIII's . I've seen 3 run low 11's. If your in the area stop by my shop.

Again kick ass info!!thnx

-Jon
Thnx for the kind words.

That TB spot sounds like a winner.

I'm in SoCAL, Irvine to be precise...a bit distant from Va.
:(
Take care.

-Larry A
 

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SupraWood said:
Thanks all for the great info! Now, what is the best way to tune a car with water injection? Once I get the single on I will want to know what the boost limit is of my car on pump gas. How would I go about finding that out?

Larry....that is one bad ass looking mkiii! Your thoughts are very welcome.

Daniel
Your welcome, & thnx.

As with any mod that affects a drastic chng in a # of resultant parameters, an incremental approach is advised, using data feedback to gauge what to alter; IE, wideband AFs, timing [for the dataloggers], power/torque, etc.

In essence, you would determine max-safe boost the same way as you would if the WI weren't even there. Base-run, adjust; run again, adjust; run again, adjust, etc.

Since my WI setups have always consisted of static pressure, & flow [based on pumps & jet size], it was much easier to tune, since fuel & base timing were all there was to deal with. WI jets have always been based on Spearco's charts- pretty generic, but they've always worked fine for me. I won't elaborate on pressures & their relationship to jet sizes- this msg will already be a labor of love to read.

Anyway.....
I always start the base run w/o WI, then adjust AFs across 1 or 2 more runs to 11.6 to 12 : 1, then debut the WI, & do runs/adjust until I max out @ 12.5 : 1. Luckily, my dyno guy installs NOS systems, so he also knows what to look for tuning-wise, & helps out immensely during the process. Anothr set of eyes is always a good thing.

I know that upwards of 13:1 are [probably] acheivable, but don't go there, knowing the full meaning of *point-of-failure*. Most tuners would balk @ that AF, & rightfully so. 12.5:1 is already on the lean side for a turbo car pushing ~20psi, but an AF I can deal with, if the WI were to fail...kind of counting on the knock sensors to pull back timing hard in that eventuality.

Not having a means of logging timing has always been my Achilles heel, but keeping the AFs @ 12.5:1 have proven reliable under WI even w/o seeing timing curve data. My spark plugs told me so.

Spark plug examination is your best friend. Don't count on hearing detonation. Use plug condition to determine true state-of-tune. There is a fellow on the MkIV List [Lance] who can smother you in all kinds of technical jargon, stressing this same fundamental diagnostic.

If you get a WI sys that is user-configurable on-the-fly, just approach it as though it were anothr knob to turn, or a new set of adjustable cam gears. Keep records of the chngs until an optimum can be ascertained, then stick w/the best combo. It's not hard, really, but it IS time consuming. 2 or 3 hrs on the dyno will go by in a heartbeat, but the results will spk for themselves.

Mixtures of water with [insert choice of chemical], are also interesting to play with, as mentioned by Mr Spooln6. On my old [but built] '74 Celica, I too found that a mix of Methanol/Water yielded the best results. The reasons why are beyond the scope
of this msg. If I currently use water-only, it's due to the reasons I posted earlier [corrosion], & that using water confers convenience to an already burdened Supra pre & post flight checklist.

Ha! LOL. I still have a jug of 50-50 mix under my desk that's been there almost a year.

On that note, I'll give it a rest.
:eek:

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-Larry A
http://www.supracentral.com/oldschool/
 
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