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NSW supra club Member
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,
just a quick question from some1 that knows they're stuff.
I need someone that knows how to read a dyno graph if possable?
Im having an issue and cant seem to solve it, just yet :)

That broken zig zag line at teh very top end of the power run? what could cause that?
it gets to the 434hp and then suddenly hits a brick wall, while it also reaches teh boost peak, boost still keeps going nice and flat!

Engine :2jzgte
cams : stock JDM cams
head : stock, no work.
block : stock
turbo : garrett gt42 (74mm)
ecu : haltech
Ignition : new oem coil and hks dli, plugs gaped at 0.27th (or 0.7mm) running ngk bkr7e.
exhaust : 3" from turbo back, no cat. open wastegate 44mm tial.
intercooler : 3" piping and core 600x300x 3"
fuel : 6x 850cc blitz, 800hp bosch pump
Car evidently not spinning the tyres.
No clutch slip on teh street or dyno.

Car is not running lean, running around 11.5 to 12.0 :1 ratio at WOT.
boost is set at 25psi.
No boost leak evident when checked.

im just after someone to tell me what they think that graph is doing so i can perhaps look into that a bit more!

Appreciate any feedback i can get, any help/ideas are better then nothing :) i need to get this turbo screaming damnit lol.



 

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How are you measuring rpm?

On the Dyno Dynamics there are a couple of different ways to do so.
Are you taking the reading from the ignition system or going off the calculated rpm based on speed(mph) vs gear ratio.
I've seen that flat line happen many times on that particular dyno due to wheel spin not noticeable to the naked eyes.
Also verify your datalogs on the ECU vs the Dyno datalogs.
What's the timing curve from 5.5k to 7k rpm?
Also if you're in 'sequential injection mode' did you play around with the injection angles?
 

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NSW supra club Member
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
crispeed,
id love to answer all your questions, but im afraid i wont know all of them.
the tuner is who im paying to do all my readings and tuning ect... so i would say he is the one that should know how to connect it all up, know what ignition timing to run ect ect, and know if the car is spinning or be able to tell by looking at the graph to tell me what i should be looking for, if any problems evident!
He is well known here down under, and maybe you have heard of him, his name is Matt, and he goes by the name of "hitman", here is his website if your interested, he specialises in this ecu haltech.
http://www.hitman.hm/

1) regarding the rpm measuring, i dont know where they took it from! but he has done supras before, and as youve seen by looking teh the dyno graphs, ive been to a second one to compare the two, both look identical.. and both tuners have dealt with these cars before, so i would say they connected it right!

2) wheel spin didnt seem like an issue! but like you said, if its not visable, how would i know ? they sat on teh rear to see if it would change, but it didnt make any difference.

3) i havent played with teh sequential injection angles! im not sure if teh tuner has tho? i myself dont know what that does so i dont touch it... how can i find out tho? where do i look in my ecu datalogs?

4) here is my ignition timing curve, please check it for me.
myself, by looking at it, seems very low!
and just so its known, i get that flat line at 19psi or 25psi, doesnt make a difference1



thanks again for any feedback, looking forward to solving this issue.
 

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I don't know if the 7 heatrange are an issue or not. I have had less missfire issues with 8 heatranges than with heatrange 7.

One thing pops to mind is a Lexus turbo that came to a tuning session at my friend's shop. He was running haltech also. It was a pain in the ass the whole day, sometimes pegging, very similar to your graph. It turned out to be the crank sensor. The sensor was cleaned and its wires retouted a little to avoid contact with metal. They also had a little grounding problems with their MSD system.The little pegging syndrome was cured I think. I haven't heard from them again.

Might not be the case for you, it's just something that popped up in my head right now after reading this thread.
 

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Mazman.
Your timing curves are very conservative above 15psi. Actually they are way beyond conservatiive as being too retarded at 25psi. Are you guys monitoring egt's?
What's the octane of the fuel you are running?
I've tuned many 1g's, 1j's and 2j's with the Haltech ecu and have never experience that type of weird dyno graph unless what I stated before is the problem.
 

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Doin' the Monster Mash
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We run 98 octane fuel in Australia, however quality compared to US fuel is questionable...

He did his 25 psi run with meth injection also.
 

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Hi, I am very new to tuning aftermarket ECU's and only have some knowledge on the Apexi Power-FC that I have been tuning myself. I am trying to understand/compare your Ign map. Why does your kPa load scale only go to 200kPa and why are marked 15psi-20psi-25psi points with red arrows? On the Power-FC Ign map for example 200kPa is approx 15 psi boost so if I look at say the cell that 200kPa and 5600rpm intersect at I will have 17 degrees timimg advance. The way your map looks/reads you have nothing like that amount of timing? Like I said I am not familiar with your ECU and how to read/understand your Ign map so I am quite likely being a dumb ass and not interpreting/understanding this correctly? Cheers Phil.
MAZMAN said:
crispeed,
id love to answer all your questions, but im afraid i wont know all of them.
the tuner is who im paying to do all my readings and tuning ect... so i would say he is the one that should know how to connect it all up, know what ignition timing to run ect ect, and know if the car is spinning or be able to tell by looking at the graph to tell me what i should be looking for, if any problems evident!
He is well known here down under, and maybe you have heard of him, his name is Matt, and he goes by the name of "hitman", here is his website if your interested, he specialises in this ecu haltech.
http://www.hitman.hm/

1) regarding the rpm measuring, i dont know where they took it from! but he has done supras before, and as youve seen by looking teh the dyno graphs, ive been to a second one to compare the two, both look identical.. and both tuners have dealt with these cars before, so i would say they connected it right!

2) wheel spin didnt seem like an issue! but like you said, if its not visable, how would i know ? they sat on teh rear to see if it would change, but it didnt make any difference.

3) i havent played with teh sequential injection angles! im not sure if teh tuner has tho? i myself dont know what that does so i dont touch it... how can i find out tho? where do i look in my ecu datalogs?

4) here is my ignition timing curve, please check it for me.
myself, by looking at it, seems very low!
and just so its known, i get that flat line at 19psi or 25psi, doesnt make a difference1



thanks again for any feedback, looking forward to solving this issue.
 

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NSW supra club Member
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Thanks fella's for some thoughts.

Crispeed,
im running 98octane here wich is similar to what you guys have in the states, being 93 octane.
I run this fuel upto 19psi.
when running 25psi, i switch my meth/water spray, so i have enough octane i would say.
egt's are not measured!
The timing being low is what i thought, but since the tuner is a popular one, i simply dont know! id love to get some maps of ingnition from other people and compare.

Phil NZ,
sorry, maybe i shoudl of stated it in teh beggining.
the 200kpa on teh haltech is 2 bar(meaning ~30psi), i have choped the screen so i can just show my area of boosted ignition map, but the page to the left that is missing, will have kpa in negative(-), so you would have -kpa(vacum) 100kpa (1 bar) and 200kpa (2 bar).
I however do know what your saying, and can see where you got the confusion from... i have a map sensor that is 3BAR.
for example, if you have a map sensor that is 2BAR, you will only have teh scale go to 100KPA(~15psi).
Those red arrows was just me editing it in ms-paint, just to show people that dont know KPA to see where abouts teh 15/20/25psi range is...

Grumpy,
Thank you for sharing teh other guys problem, i may have to check my crank sensor, but liek said, it sort of doesnt feel liek ignition problem or break up! very weird indeed.
Ill gap my plugs lower and see what happends tho, and ive seen lots of people running this plug with good sucess! that is why i chose to use it.

Strych9,
ye, looking at it it looks liek breaking ignition, but the weird thing is, i cant feel this on teh road! it was just when i decided to go on teh dyno that i realised i have a problem.
Valve springs weak at only 19psi?! im sure it shouldnt be that, i know peopel running 30psi without having valve spring problems, unless mine are at fault somehow!
cheers
 

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Hey Mazman,
I have an unopened 2JZ here in melbourne and on Mobil 8000 my engine has 17deg at 5500rpm and 23deg by 7500rpm at 14psi. At 25psi I am running Sunoco race fuel116, and am running 15 deg @ 5500 and 21 deg by 7500rpm. I run a dyno dynamics dyno and dont believe it to be wheelspin, to establish this for certain, log a run on your ecu and ensure your rpm line is linear as that is how these dynos ramp. If not add timing at the lower boost and ensure it doesnt knock, if the engine wants the timing down there it is safe to assume it will want it at higher loads. The power loss is from your spark being blown out at too high a cylinder pressure, the closer you fire to tdc the greater the cylinder pressure hence more difficult to spark. The usual test I have for this is to add 3deg of timing and if the miss does not occur until later in the rpm range, I continue to add being extremely cautious of detonation. I have seen this many times and always ensure my ignition system is capable of handling the load first, as a poor spark will show identical results.
Regards-Anthony
 

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NSW supra club Member
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Anthony,
appreciate the feedback and comments you made, thank you :)
Going by your ignition map, i am running WAY lower! and like you say, this may have something to do with it, you mention spark blowout.
So, am i understanding, that what your saying is, the lower the timing(closer to TDC) will have a harder time sparking (due to cylinder pressure), then if i was to fire it earler (BTDC)?
To reduce this, i should raise my ignition higher so by doing this, the spark will be more stronger?(wont blow ouot ( due to less cylinder pressure at the point of ignition firing?)).
hmmm, seems logical now that i think about it.
I will raise my timing as soon as im finished doing my exhaust at the moment, and will report back with info.

Again, thanks for giving me some tips, hope you enjoy the supra now, i know your use to the mazda's ;) hehe and enjoy it, looking forward to see what you can do with teh supra's now, im sure you'll be teh one to look out for :)
 

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Mazman
Try using the same timing you have at 15 psi all the way to about 20 psi as a test at first. Your timing at 15 psi is pretty much on the safe side and should produce better results than what you had before at 20 psi.
 

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Hi Mazman, That is what I assumed was the case but just wanted to make sure before commenting further. I think your timing is still very conservative and I am the same as Anthony's examples for 15psi and 25psi at 5500rpm but a little more conservative at 7500rpm (2 degrees less in each case) I am Pump Gas/Meth at 25 psi though not race gas like Anthony. It will be interesting to see if being too conservative with timing is causing the problem as several people have implied.(Their explanation seems to make sense). I notice you are still on J-spec cams and while not related to your current issue you will see a huge increase for going to 264 cams as a minimum upgrade to balance with the rest of your mods. Cheers and good luck, Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Project-SupraDupra said:
have you tried more than one dyno place
the two dyno sheet's ive posted above are from two different places.
If you have a look, you will see they're bussines name on teh dyno sheet!
one was race solutions, the other was croydon.

Its raining here at the moment, and havent had a chance to test the new timings as of yet.
Ive also just made my 4" dump pipe, will see how that goes.
cheers
Danny
 
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