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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anybody know a good place to buy shims? I'm not trying to go shimless at the moment so definetly sticking with shims before someone suggests that :) If it helps, I need to order the shims below. I apologize for the odd formatting. Thanks in advance!

GOOD
0.1178​
0.1224​
0.1176​
0.1235​
0.1223​
0.1157​
0.1245​
0.1184​
0.114​
0.1189​
GOOD
0.1152​
GOOD
0.1181​
0.1186​
0.1184​
0.1181​
0.1178​
0.1187​
0.1205​
0.1211​
GOODGOOD
 

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What engine? 7M's use 25mm diameter shims, the 2JZ uses 27.5mm diameter shims.

What thicknesses do you need? What you posted didn't make a lot of sense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
What engine? 7M's use 25mm diameter shims, the 2JZ uses 27.5mm diameter shims.

What thicknesses do you need? What you posted didn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah sorry, good point.
7MGTE and those measurement in the tables are in Imperial. Ex: 0.1178in shim needed. This table is a little convoluted but this is where I was getting these shims sizes from.

Computer Font Rectangle Personal computer Technology
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yeah sorry, good point.
7MGTE and those measurement in the tables are in Imperial. Ex: 0.1178in shim needed. This table is a little convoluted but this is where I was getting these shims sizes from.

View attachment 284694
Also, I realized I labeled the valves as "Cylinder" on thr left 😂 ignore that. I'm not running a 12 cylinder 7m, although that would be crazy
 

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Yeah sorry, good point.
7MGTE and those measurement in the tables are in Imperial. Ex: 0.1178in shim needed. This table is a little convoluted but this is where I was getting these shims sizes from.

View attachment 284694

That is a very clever and straightforward use of Excel to solve that problem! Nice!

But these numbers are unexpected for a 7M-GTE. Are you assembling this engine for the first time, or out of mixed parts from several engines? How do the cams look?

Generally, on older 7M's you'll have the opposite problem and need thinner shims to get the lash back into spec, because the valves will 'tulip' a bit from the heat -especially on the exhaust side- and the valve seats themselves will wear in thinner which leads to more valve stem pushing up toward the cam.
This in turn leads to burned valves especially on the exhaust side, as there's insufficent seat time for them to cool down after the engine's firing cycle.
Which is why I personally try to stay at 0.010"-0.012" on the exhaust side. The exhaust side valves you're measuring at 0.012 and 0.013, honestly, I'd leave alone. Unless you're running tons of boost or beating the heck out of the rev limiter on tired old stock valve springs, I wouldn't expect you to run into shim stability issues there. In which case the answer is some fresh upgraded valve springs, valve stem seals, and a simple valve job first - then reassess your shim situation.

I'd also notice that you can re-use some shims to make other valves right. Intake-8's .1157 is bang-on for Exhaust-7, for instance.

But based on how consistently the majority of the valves need a thicker shim, I'd just get some valve lapping paste and do a by-hand valve job like @IdahoDoug did - hopefully he can dig up where he posted the pictures of it, because he used 100 year old valve lapping paste and took some nice pictures during his 7M-GE restoration. Doing a valve job will help a lot and you can expect it to bring all the valves a few thousandths further in toward the cam with the existing shims you've got. I know that'll throw a few out of wack, but it's easier IME to pull a valve and tip it a few thou down on a grinding wheel to match a fatter shim vs ordering a shitload of thinner shims.
 

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Do not lap shims bro. Make sure your measuring right for one thing, but any machine shop will just adjust your valves with a valve job retaining all the original shims (go get shimless buckets from pick n pull for 5 dollars) and you surely need a valve job like every other 100k mile plus head does
 

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Ahh ok, I saw someone doing that on My.is . Should really just have the seats cut with a serdi machine , the valves ground and the tips cut to set lash . All the time messing around so far could have been over time at work that would have covered the machine shop costs haha
 

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Do not lap shims bro. Make sure your measuring right for one thing, but any machine shop will just adjust your valves with a valve job retaining all the original shims (go get shimless buckets from pick n pull for 5 dollars) and you surely need a valve job like every other 100k mile plus head does
Not sure where you got the suggestion of lapping shims, but you're right, nobody should do that if there's any other way. But if there's no other way, machine the inside face that goes towards the bucket, not the side that faces the camshaft.

I disagree about 'any machine shop' will adjust your valves. I'd phrase that as 'any machine shop' will take your money and pull the valves out and put your parts against spinning machinery, but whether or not that results in a decent valve job or correct valve lash values is far from guaranteed with 'any machine shop'.
When looking for a good machine shop for cyl head work, I like to start by talking to sportbike shops and Honda guys and see who's doing their cylinder head work. Any shop that can deal with Ducati heads or B/K series Honda heads and get it right the first time will absolutely get a 7M or JZ head right as well.

Also, most Suzuki GS1100 and other Suzuki/Yamaha shims that I'm aware of are 29.5mm or larger, and not compatible with any JZ or M series engine. There were some older 80's and early 90's Honda bikes that had compatible shims for 7M's, but the exact models and years escape me right now. I know they're old and hard to find now, and that Honda's shim selection range didn't really match up because they tended to be a lot thinner than what we needed.

The junkyard shimless bucket suggestion is a non-starter as well, because we're talking about a 7M-GTE. The junkyard-find 1ZZ-FE buckets work in 2JZ's, but 7M's are much smaller. To go shimless with later Toyota buckets in a 7M you need to source 1SZ-FE/2SZ-FE buckets, and that's the 1.0L & 1.3L engines found in some JDM and global market versions of the bB, Echo, Vitz, Platz, etc.
Those engines were never brought to the US since we got the 1NZ 1.5L instead in the Echo, misc Scions, etc.
So there's no US junkyard shimless 7M option that I've ever heard of or seen. It's also worth noting that any inner-shim or shimless option that works for the 16V 4A-GE will also work in the 7M-GE or GTE.

Here's a list of Toyota part numbers for the various thicknesses available in the 1SZ-FE shimless buckets, from a 4AG centric website. Just in case the OP wants to splurge on a 'buy once cry once' solution. Prices run about $9 each, which x24 valves and the shipping isn't a super cheap option. But it's an option.
Valve Lifter Tuning by 1SZ-FE parts for the 16V 4A-GE - Club4AG

The values are in mm and include the thickness of the shim and the bucket. So you'll have to measure bucket thickness combined with each shim to properly cross reference these values. Using a dial caliper, you can use a 'tare' bar of sorts. I have a valve stem from a bent valve that I cut to exactly 25mm for this purpose; I insert that into the middle of the bucket as if it were assembled on a head, measure the total thickness with the shim and bucket and stem together, and subtract the 25mm to get the total thickness of the shim and bucket together.


Neil, I know you're trying to help and thank you for that - but please verify your information, and be very specific about exact model years/etc if you want to provide meaningful guidance. A lot of the stuff you post isn't very accurate.
 

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So there are gs1100 age bikes that have the correct size shim? Also there are indeed other Toyota motors that are in junkyards and completely worthless that have the correct shimless buckets? Also suggesting to have a machine shop setup your cylinder head with what you have is worse than telling someone who obviously isn’t an auto tech to take apart a DOHC head and then take the most abrasive easy to get in the guides and every where else substance to it with a drill? Donno brother I get paid to build motors, not just for funsies on my own stuff

OP if you need help finding an engine machine shop that can do one of the more common operations that engine machine shops do let me know , or if your in Nor cal say what’s up
 

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I should also add that whenever shims come up, people tend to repeat the falsity that "you can find them at motorcycle shops". I took a few of mine and spent a half day driving to every motorcycle shop brand and asking for the oldest tech to see about that. Not one person said any variation from, "nope, never seen shims like that, all ours are half that diameter". Some kindly brought their spares out as I was kind of persistent that people say this online all the time. Nope. Not now, not ever, was my conclusion.
 

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Our shop had a box that fit the JZs, so I donno. Thought it was for Suzukis. My original stance on “shimming” is that if they are out of adjustment, it needs a valve job, therefore it needs a machine shop, therefore they will lash it with a valve grinding machine if you ask for it to be done. Trust but verify, bring a feeler gauge…
 

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So there are gs1100 age bikes that have the correct size shim? Also there are indeed other Toyota motors that are in junkyards and completely worthless that have the correct shimless buckets? Also suggesting to have a machine shop setup your cylinder head with what you have is worse than telling someone who obviously isn’t an auto tech to take apart a DOHC head and then take the most abrasive easy to get in the guides and every where else substance to it with a drill? Donno brother I get paid to build motors, not just for funsies on my own stuff

OP if you need help finding an engine machine shop that can do one of the more common operations that engine machine shops do let me know , or if your in Nor cal say what’s up
All the 80's era shim indexes I've ever found for 80's GS1100's, older Yamahas, etc all indicated 29.5mm shim diameter. We've heard that motorcycle shim nonsense parroted since the SOGI email list days, but I've never once seen or heard of anyone actually getting shims for a 7M or 2JZ from a motorcycle shop. As Doug discovered for himself, apparently.
What diameter are your "GS1100" shims? What model years were they found in? Have you installed them in a 7M or JZ successfully? Got pics?

Secondly, if you took the time to read and understand my post - NO, there are not any US market Toyota engines that use shimless buckets suitable for a 7M. The JZ's can use 1ZZ-FE buckets out of the millions of 1.8L Corollas, Matrixes, Celicas, and the odd MR2 Spyder that are floating around out here. But unless you're looking for 1.0 and 1.3L Toyota Vitz and Platz models in Asian junkyards, no, you won't find any shimless buckets that work in a 7M. Different valve spring bore. Have you even had a 7M or 2JZ head apart?

Third - Bro, you're saying you work at a machine shop, and aren't 100% on board with the suggestion that some machine shops turn out hot fucking garbage for work? No offense, but how long have you been in the industry? Good machine shops I know spend about 15-30% of their time fixing what another machine shop 'fixed' before, and the good ones that don't aren't doing it for a lack of available work, it's that they're tired of trying to fix un-fixable shit with cheap customers that already got bent over once.

Yes, I think a motivated enthusiast that gives a shit and pays attention to the details will do a vastly better job than many machine shops. Or many performance shops for that matter.
It'll take them a lot more man-hours to do it, sure. But given the wait times at good machine shops that's still usually faster anyway.

And finally - I started working on Supras in 1999, my first paid job in a performance shop was in 2002, and I left the performance industry four shops later in 2016 for a .gov job as the shop foreman of the largest performance shop in my state. We had warrantied built engine programs for the EJ257, VQ35, LS, and Coyote 5.0L. I managed six technicians on eight lifts and two dynos with a full time tuner. Was it always sunshine and perfection and rainbows? Nope, no shop ever is. It was constant 80hr weeks of stress and trying to out-produce a manager that over-promised a lot to customers out of ignorance. There's a reason there's so many speed shops featured on reality TV shows. I lived those reality TV shows for a long damn time.

So no, I'm not just saying what I say because I've done this for 'funsies' a few times.
 

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It's strange to me that people can't find shims at Toyota. Both McGeorge and ToyotaPartsDeal show all thickness are available for $11-$12 each. McGeorge has slightly lower prices. Most of the part numbers have a superseded number, but they are all showing available today. I bought several only a couple of years ago in sizes 20, 26, and 30. TPD notes that cars from 1984 to 1999 used these, so I can't imagine them going away anytime soon.

Yea, they are really pricey, but they do last a very long time.

This is my table of part numbers:
Shim #​
mm​
inch​
Part #​
superseded​
2​
2.50​
0.0984​
13753-16020​
4​
2.55​
0.1004​
13753-16040​
6​
2.60​
0.1024​
13753-16060​
-16351​
8​
2.65​
0.1043​
13753-16080​
-16371​
10​
2.70​
0.1063​
13753-16100​
-16401​
12​
2.75​
0.1083​
13753-16120​
-16421​
14​
2.80​
0.1102​
13753-16140​
-16451​
16​
2.85​
0.1122​
13753-16160​
-16471​
18​
2.90​
0.1142​
13753-16180​
-16501​
20​
2.95​
0.1161​
13753-16200​
-16521​
22​
3.00​
0.1181​
13753-16220​
-16551​
24​
3.05​
0.1201​
13753-16240​
-16571​
26​
3.10​
0.1220​
13753-16260​
-16601​
28​
3.15​
0.1240​
13753-16280​
-16621​
30​
3.20​
0.1260​
13753-16300​
-16651​
32​
3.25​
0.1280​
13753-16320​
34​
3.30​
0.1299​
13753-16340​
 

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Still stand by what I said, having a machine shop do the head start to finish is way smarter than fucking with shims or any of that. Injector pumps go to the injector pump specialist, turbos to the turbo guy cylinder heads to the cylinder head man etc. you see that other guy that blew the head gasket and bolted that shit back together rusted solid? Imagine him installing valve locks , or measuring lash for that matter
 

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Dunno about that. It seems like here on forums as many shops mess up valve jobs as I've seen them come out beautiful. I did my own, including lapping the valves and got a perfectly sealing head with the valve lash set perfectly on all 24. Would a machine shop have done it as well? Dunno. But mine is as perfect as it gets and I have the measurements to prove it, so I sleep well at night... Plus I saved half a grand, at least. And I will never let anybody mess with my valve locks.
 

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Lapping is only done after the seats are cut and the valves ground, and the last kwik-way valve grinding machine I saw was 10k, and the Serdi valve seat machine is 10x more than that so your garage is either sick, or your end result is a lot shittier than you think cuzzo
 
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