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1987 mk3 supra, 7mgte r154
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Okay so heres the problem, i had miscellaneous electronics in this project supra when i bought it. I found an electronic boost controller, IAT sensor and a GM 3 bar map sensor in the back of the car when i got it. They were all wired up and attached to these white male clips and i just didn't understand how the previous owner was going to use them. I slowly got the car put together and it has 550cc injectors and stock afm. So i figured id do the Lexus afm to compensate for the 550cc injectors, so i ordered the afm and an Apexi safc 2 to tune it.

Well, yesterday i looked around the car to see if there was something that i was missing for those map, EBC, and IAT sensors and behold, i have found a MAFT PRO digital maf elimator under the drivers seat! Now everything for the maft pro is wired correctly and just needs put into the car and tuned with the Tunerpro RT software.

Now the question is, which one do i use? Im not sure if i should keep the lexus maf and tune with the Apexi safc 2 or just go straight to the MAFT PRO, ditch the AFM, and use that and a laptop to tune it. I have an innovate motorsports LC-1 wideband that can be used with the maft pro but i could also just wire the wideband up normally and use the safc to tune the car.

I really have no clue which one to use, the safc seems simpler to use but the maft pro is more in dept and will be better for the car. The TunerPro RT software seems easy enough to use when i looked at how to use it yesterday but it seems like old tech and there doesn't seem like there is a lot of support for it. A standalone ecu is out of my price range for now so id like to utilize one of these options. Any opinions welcome! And if you guys have .bin, and .xdf files for the tuner pro id greatly appreciate them being attached!

My mods are:
Built motor with 83.5mm wiseco pistons (stock comp), crower rods
Built head with Ferrara valves, springs, and retainers and BC 280 cams.
550cc injectors, aero fpr (set at 40psi) Lexus afm
Boostlab 6065, aftermarket t4 manifold for turbo, 3 inch exhaust, cx racing FMIC and intercooler piping.
Everything else is stock
 

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So, point blank, any piggy back will be a risk since to control Lambda/AFR requires dicking with the AFM signal which directly ties to ignition. Hell I also come from don't use the Lexus AFM/550 combo due to where it puts the OEM ignition table at.

So even though a standalone is out of your price range, I suggest you go that route if you are seeking more power. The piggy back stuff should not be used with the OEM 7M tccs unless you want to join the "7M sucks because i have no idea how a piggy back affects ignition timing" crowd.
 

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1987 mk3 supra, 7mgte r154
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Discussion Starter #3
So, point blank, any piggy back will be a risk since to control Lambda/AFR requires dicking with the AFM signal which directly ties to ignition. Hell I also come from don't use the Lexus AFM/550 combo due to where it puts the OEM ignition table at.

So even though a standalone is out of your price range, I suggest you go that route if you are seeking more power. The piggy back stuff should not be used with the OEM 7M tccs unless you want to join the "7M sucks because i have no idea how a piggy back affects ignition timing" crowd.
Well, the piggyback will eliminate the AFM and set it up using MAP and IAT sensors. I have no problem doing that simply because it would get rid of air measuring and tune based on barometric manifold pressure. I just dont know how to use the Tunerpro RT software. But the safc is way easier to use just a less precise way of tuning.
 

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I know what the MAFT pro and all the other piggy backs do.

They all mess with the AFM signal to get the TCCS to operate by using the AIT and MAP to estimate a AFM signal.

In the end, they are all indirectly screwing with ignition timing since the AFM signal has a direct correlation with igntion timing.
 

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1987 mk3 supra, 7mgte r154
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Discussion Starter #6
I know what the MAFT pro and all the other piggy backs do.

They all mess with the AFM signal to get the TCCS to operate by using the AIT and MAP to estimate a AFM signal.

In the end, they are all indirectly screwing with ignition timing since the AFM signal has a direct correlation with igntion timing.
Oh alright, so you're saying i should just totally hold out and buy a standalone then? A lot of people on here have had good luck with the safc 2 but i figured since the maft pro was more in depth it would be even safer than the safc
 

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You went with all of this:

My mods are:
Built motor with 83.5mm wiseco pistons (stock comp), crower rods
Built head with Ferrara valves, springs, and retainers and BC 280 cams.
550cc injectors, aero fpr (set at 40psi) Lexus afm
Boostlab 6065, aftermarket t4 manifold for turbo, 3 inch exhaust, cx racing FMIC and intercooler piping.
Just to dick around with a half measure piggy back?

Sell your MAFT Pro and SAFC and use the money to go towards a proper standalone ECU. Figgie quite clearly said the piggybacks do nothing for the timing control, and timing control is what will destroy your motor with haste. Add up all the money you have in the bottom end and decide if redoing all of that is worth not spending a little extra on a full ecu.
 

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1987 mk3 supra, 7mgte r154
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Discussion Starter #8
You went with all of this:



Just to dick around with a half measure piggy back?

Sell your MAFT Pro and SAFC and use the money to go towards a proper standalone ECU. Figgie quite clearly said the piggybacks do nothing for the timing control, and timing control is what will destroy your motor with haste. Add up all the money you have in the bottom end and decide if redoing all of that is worth not spending a little extra on a full ecu.
Ha no, i bought the car like this for $3000 and the guy before the guy i bought it from built the motor and had an aem v1, the guy i bought it from seemed to "half part" the car and sold the ecu. I didnt build the engine or head just put it back together. But i will save for an ecu then. Thanks everyone
 

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Ha no, i bought the car like this for $3000 and the guy before the guy i bought it from built the motor and had an aem v1, the guy i bought it from seemed to "half part" the car and sold the ecu. I didnt build the engine or head just put it back together. But i will save for an ecu then. Thanks everyone
look for used. I have seen used ECU black and classics for 600-700.

ANY standalone will be better than half assing with piggy backs.
Heck, i just sold my AEMv1 for 600!
 

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While I agree with the comments here (advanced timing/lis dangerous/stand aloneis better) I thought I would comment , as a maft pro user


Maft pro beats safc IMHO because you can interface with software and data log. It also allows afm removal (speed density) and much more precise control of fuel. My car has held it's tune well - but I always monitor the fuel trims to verify the tccs ecu is not trimming the tables wild up/down



It's really the 550 injector that are the issue. They require the afm signal to be shrink so much the tccs computer just has no idea how much load (% wise)is on the engine.

That being said, you can run 440 with maft pro, jack the rail pressure up a bit and have a somewhat more sane setup (vs a 550/lex afm setup)

I personally do a few more things to make it live

1. Always have at least 30% mix of race gas/ premium in the tank. This is easy for me bc it's at a pump 3 miles from my house

2. Calibrate and replace the wideband o2 sensor often. For our lc1 you can get the sensor on Amazon for $30 these days. Every spring I put a new one on because of the race gas (it's fouls /degrades the sensor)

3 no ac in my car. And I don't daily. So I'm never caught in the situation where they like to blow. That would be AC on, 100+ degree intake temps on freeway freeway at maybe 3-3500 rpm. Boost rolling on at part throttle. Tccs ecu mis reads that situation bad. I can see in my loggs part throttle boost has a tendency to run very lean fuel wise (on a piggy back tuned car) ....combine that with advance timing and it's a disaster wtg to happen. Which brings up #4

#4 tune your afr rich to help mitigate the advanced timing. Rich mix Burns slower


Also maft pro has some primitive fail safe settings. Wot afr tracking can help if something goes leaner than you want. Also you can tune the maft pro to enrich based of intake temp

Finally you need to keep fuel cut alive in the setup. Do not use the setting to limit the afm max hz thinking you will get around fuel cut. IMHO you want to run the car just below fuel cut so you have that oem tccs feature to save things of you get an overbost situation with that big turbo

For my setup (440s and rail pressure 10# over spec) fuel cut is around 12 psi 3-4500 rpm and 16 psi on the top end. This equals a car that runs 13's and traps at 110 mph

Did I mention with maft pro you can use it's electric boost controller to tine your boost curve ? For example you can keep it on spring until xxxx rpm and then also control how it ramps up. Helpful when running right on the edge of fuel cut :)

If you only drive your car on weekends, at events etc it's a manageable setup. Just keep an eye on it (the tune) and use high octane
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
While I agree with the comments here (advanced timing/lis dangerous/stand aloneis better) I thought I would comment , as a maft pro user


Maft pro beats safc IMHO because you can interface with software and data log. It also allows afm removal (speed density) and much more precise control of fuel. My car has held it's tune well - but I always monitor the fuel trims to verify the tccs ecu is not trimming the tables wild up/down



It's really the 550 injector that are the issue. They require the afm signal to be shrink so much the tccs computer just has no idea how much load (% wise)is on the engine.

That being said, you can run 440 with maft pro, jack the rail pressure up a bit and have a somewhat more sane setup (vs a 550/lex afm setup)

I personally do a few more things to make it live

1. Always have at least 30% mix of race gas/ premium in the tank. This is easy for me bc it's at a pump 3 miles from my house

2. Calibrate and replace the wideband o2 sensor often. For our lc1 you can get the sensor on Amazon for $30 these days. Every spring I put a new one on because of the race gas (it's fouls /degrades the sensor)

3 no ac in my car. And I don't daily. So I'm never caught in the situation where they like to blow. That would be AC on, 100+ degree intake temps on freeway freeway at maybe 3-3500 rpm. Boost rolling on at part throttle. Tccs ecu mis reads that situation bad. I can see in my loggs part throttle boost has a tendency to run very lean fuel wise (on a piggy back tuned car) ....combine that with advance timing and it's a disaster wtg to happen. Which brings up #4

#4 tune your afr rich to help mitigate the advanced timing. Rich mix Burns slower


Also maft pro has some primitive fail safe settings. Wot afr tracking can help if something goes leaner than you want. Also you can tune the maft pro to enrich based of intake temp

Finally you need to keep fuel cut alive in the setup. Do not use the setting to limit the afm max hz thinking you will get around fuel cut. IMHO you want to run the car just below fuel cut so you have that oem tccs feature to save things of you get an overbost situation with that big turbo

For my setup (440s and rail pressure 10# over spec) fuel cut is around 12 psi 3-4500 rpm and 16 psi on the top end. This equals a car that runs 13's and traps at 110 mph

Did I mention with maft pro you can use it's electric boost controller to tine your boost curve ? For example you can keep it on spring until xxxx rpm and then also control how it ramps up. Helpful when running right on the edge of fuel cut :)

If you only drive your car on weekends, at events etc it's a manageable setup. Just keep an eye on it (the tune) and use high octane
Thanks Madison, i think im going to give it a try but i really cannot find any info of how to use the Tunerpro RT software, the internet is full of broken links for the software... Also, thank you for the tips on how to keep everything running smoothly, ill definitely keep a monitor on the afrs when driving. Is it alright if i send you a couple DMs on the way if i have trouble?
 

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I'm looking into tuning right now, my car's kind of in that stage. I can't for the life of me find a maft pro up here in Canada, and SAFC is more prevalent. I'm kinda weary on using this old tech and I'm especially concerned about the timing. I was looking into the DET3 but that seems like you need injector control (which doesn't work well) to enable boost control and timing.

I Just need about 300HP for a daily, and have no issues, busting 1k5 on a standalone doesn't seem right just for those numbers.

Not sure where to go right now
 

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you can get to 300 whp on the tccs ecu and 440 injectors

you just need to raise the overhead ...aka raise fuel cut threshold

best way imho is to jack up fuel pressure and use a pump that can actually flow at higher pressure (walbro 255hp etc). and then trim the afm signal down (scale it down) to balance the more fuel of the previous step

you could do this with the safc, just using the stock air flow meter housing. basically your just leaning the car out because at factory settings they like to run very rich at wot, like 10:1. raise fuel pressure and its worse. you reduce airflow signal via that safc and tune that to 11 or 11.5:1 and that raises up your fuel cut as well. but you have to know what your doing because the tccs ecu is always monitoring the o2 sensor and adjusting fuel trim under light load (fighting your safc so to speak). the bad scenario is when the cars ecu learns to lean itself out under cruise and then applies that to its full throttle maps. aka, your tune can float around. this is why safc is not as good as maft pro because the latter has way more adjust ability. but either work, with the risk of dangerously advanced timing (if you can't run higher octane this is bad...)
 

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Thanks!

With the MAFT Pro, in this case it's benefits over the SAFC would be to adjust timing alongside? How does the MAFT counter the learning of the TCCS?
 

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maft-pro may list timing control as a feature but its very primitive and not really useful.

the tccs computer does 100% of its learning with the factory narrow band o2 sensor. because of this, all of its learning is done at part throttle, situations where the car would run at stoich (14.7:1). think cruise, very light acceleration

this is because of limitations in 1987. oxygen sensors could only give a yes (below 14.7) or no (above 14.7) signal. so the cars computer would learn how much fuel was required to be on stoich, and then extrapolate that to a WOT map. (obviously the car can not run at stoich in boost so the tccs was flying blind under load and had a base wot table that was trimmed) low load learned fuel trims are used to build/adjust the WOT fuel tables

with maft pro this means you spend a lot of time tuning the low load area. this is so your are training the tccs ecu to offer no trim / as little trim as possible. your cars tccs computer has a diagnostic output (vf ) to show what its short term fuel trims are. you can actual pipe that signal into the maft-pro and log it. then you can drive around off boost and evaluate the data in the software and figure out where the tune is off. more on that: https://people.well.com/user/mosk/Vfsignal.htm

the real key with any piggy back is to get the car to not fight and self adjust its fuel trim under light load. once that is sorted you can mess with the high load (boost) adjustments in maft-pro to get the car in tune under boost. yes, the learning curve is steep... but once you get it its really a simple piggy back to use. also I should add I only use the software to data log / display info in realtime on pc. I never could get the pc softrware to change settings inside maft-pro. so I do all my tuning on the box itself using its buttons/led display
 

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Thanks!

I'm guessing the MAFT Pro allows the Vf where the SAFC doesn't. But I see the SAFC has a throttle position input where you can disable any adjustments under say 20%.
Wouldn't that be just as effective as the Vf signal (a little more open loop than the closed loop MAFT)

In your previous post you mention raising your fuel pressure and reducing the air flow (via SAFC), how would the timings differ vs just reducing the air flow?

Have you had any experience with the ECUMASTER DET3 at all? I was looking into it since here in Canada it seems to be the same price as an SAFC (and MAFT is so hard to find)

[email protected]!!
 

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VF is a diagnostic output produced by the cars oem TCCS ecu. think of it this way, there is a check engine light in the system. when the ecu turns that on=problem. when CEL light is off it means the cars ecu sees all the sensors, things are in spec

like that check engine light, VF is a diagnostic output used to show what the ecu is doing in terms of learned fuel trim. the cars oem electronics can adapt to slight variations in the physical hardware (injectors/airflow meter). it learns what it takes to run perfectly on stoich. that is what vf is showing you

none of this has anything to do with safc/maft pro or any piggy back tuner. this is the cars oem computer and systems, understanding how they work-- because you need to know that before you mess all around with it.

I think your mixing up each device (safc / maft pro) and its capabilities (inputs /outputs) and also what it can do

for example, SAFC has no input for wideband o2. safc does not interface with tuner software on a pc so as to data log


the oem fuel system is load based. this means when there is more engine load (air flow coming in) it will retard the timing. so when you scale the afm signal back because the fuel system is more capable....it advances timing across the board. and there is no fix for that because of the cars knock sensor system.

for example, if you try to outsmart the car and change the base timing set on the cps (normally set at -10) to -5 thinking it will take out advance. it will not. the cars knock system always finds what it thinks is the sweet spot, and it does this by advancing timing until it knocks, taking note of that, and running right up to that point over and over. it learns the knock point just like the fuel trim. but when things are scaled way off, like a lexus afm body does, the car kicks in too much advance in certain spots. so unless you have the juice in your tank (high octane) its risky business
 

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I'm also curious about the ecumaster det3. It claims to be able to replace the maf with a built in map sensor and have the ability to adjust ignition timing. Wouldn't this solve the timing problem the other piggybacks cause?
 
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