Not sure about stats, but I wonder if the dealer-installed wings would be obvious compared to factory? The two round bolt holes would be easy for a dealer to make cleanly, but the middle oval shaped hole for the plastic clip would seem more difficult to do as perfect as the factory? The ones on mine are perfect ovals, not something I'd expect a dealer's install guy to make freehand.

I wish mine was wingless, but I debate about welding up the holes permanently.

 

My '95 SE was a factory wingless car and I didn't know that until my paint shop removed the wing, and found some haggard ass holes drilled in the hatch. That oval hole for the alignment clip is definitely going to be a clear 'tell' that it was a factory wingless.

 

 

Only In the early years did turbos come wingless from the factory, they were standard on all turbos the last few years. Some wings were installed at the dealers but the majority were all factory built. The dealer I work at said they only remember installing wings a few times. NAs came either way depending on options although as with the turbos the majority of the wingless ones were in the early years. I love them either way but I'm partial to wingless.

 

Only In the early years did turbos come wingless from the factory, they were standard on all turbos the last few years.

Correct. Many of those were hardtops.

I have the answer straight from Toyota, Tim Mochizuki. He told me at last years Neo Classic car show held at the Toyota National Headquarters in Torrance, he was one of the judges, that 70% of all MKIV Supras came from the factory wingless, that includes turbo and non-turbo

70% is wrong. What he could have meant was that most arrived at dealerships with the holes pre-drilled and wing inside the trunk to be installed by new car prep. It's only speculation but I can't think of any other way that statement would make sense.

 

I have the answer straight from Toyota, Tim Mochizuki. He told me at last years Neo Classic car show held at the Toyota National Headquarters in Torrance, he was one of the judges, that 70% of all MKIV Supras came from the factory wingless, that includes turbo and non-turbo. I was surprised since I thought that it was more rare that my GTE was factory wingless, but when I told him, he said, "actually 70% came from the factory wingless, and the dealers usually put on the wings."

So just because one dealership remembers most coming with wings from the factory... does not mean that most came with wings in reality. Dealerships put more wings on turbo models since it was the flagship model, and they probably felt they could get more money by adding on the extra wing and charging a premium.

Here he is on Jay Leno's Garage: http://www.nbc.com/jay-lenos-garage/video/1971-toyota-celica/2905317

Here he is signing my wife's award for 2nd place in the Supra class. Her blue N/A came wingless (I added the wing), and my silver TT also is wingless from the factory.

 

I'm gonna have to say Tim is wrong based upon my personal experience in purchasing my '94 new in February 1994.

Only In the early years did turbos come wingless from the factory, they were standard on all turbos the last few years. Some wings were installed at the dealers but the majority were all factory built. The dealer I work at said they only remember installing wings a few times. NAs came either way depending on options although as with the turbos the majority of the wingless ones were in the early years. I love them either way but I'm partial to wingless.

I'm gonna have to say madman is right. I spoke to many dealers before purchasing my car and visited many dealerships for the same reason. All of the 93.5 cars I saw in dealership showrooms were wingless and, except for the hardtops, many of the very first cars were autos (see RSA Supra's car, for example; was an original, auto, wingless car when owned by R.S. Akimoto).

The owner of the dealership where I purchased my car is a personal friend. He told me the first cars were wingless because Toyota dealers were uncertain the wing would be accepted by the buying public. I later confirmed this with another friend who was a production engineer at Toyota at the time. It may not seem like a big deal today, but in 93 and 94, the rear spoiler was the biggest of deals and was unlike any other car being produced except for the Ferrari F40. Even I agonized over whether to go wingless or get the spoiler. I opted ultimately opted for the spoiler which came as a $420 factory option (straight from my Monroney). Like madman's 93.5 targa, my 93.5 hardtop is also a factory wingless car.

P.S. Blackie was the first MKIV Supra I saw with the factory rear spoiler.


Ken

 

The wing on a TT was only an option for the first few years --- maybe '95 at the latest, but I'm fairly certain only up to '94. After that it was standard, meaning all TT's were wing'd from the motherland.

 

Wrong as far as all TT came with wings after 94... my 95 TT came wingless from the factory. I even confirmed with a friend at Penske Toyota... he printed out the actual option sheet that came with my car... no wing.

Any others own a factory wingless TT after 94, 95? Please chime in... interested to see. Trust me if mine being a wingless TT is rare, it only benefits me! Rarer = more desirable! I'd like to believe mine is rarer... so maybe this thread can provide the answer... but I doubt it.

 

I have An extra hatch. I can snap a few pics after the Canelo fight.

 

Hatch OEM holes pic.

 

Thank you okinawa-supra.

Well I'll be damned.

My 93.5 Baltic is a factory wingless.

I only have two holes per side.

 

My former 93.5 Hardtop and current 94 Hardtop are factory wing'd cars.

OEM turbo wingless cars, were very rare for the Hawaii market.

 

Even without any numbers from Toyota, it would a good bet that they started mostly wingless from the factory, since they really did not know how each would sell in the US, and it is cleaner to add a wing than remove one.
Interesting - I would guess most of have a preference - I think mine is formed mostly from seeing only winged cars to begin with!

 

my 93.5 ren red was wingless, turbo, and auto

 

I think Hellbringer is, likely, correct with respect to when the rear wing became standard. That isn't to say a wingless car could not be ordered, as was apparently the case with Brian Kallaher's car. At least from the majority of responses in this thread, it appears most factory wingless cars came very early in the MKIV's five-year production cycle, with the rear wing becoming standard at some point, while wingless cars could still be ordered from the factory when buying new from a dealer.

I don't know how old Tim is, and I'm not questioning Kallaher's representations, but the gestation period for the MKIV Supra was from 1989 to late 1992. Toyota had been stung by the criticism regarding the weight of the MKIII Supra, so significant effort was put into making the MKIV significantly lighter than the MKIII. I wrote a paper about this many years ago.

Toyota conducted a total of 956 meetings during the car's '89-'92 development with the sole objective of taking weight out of the car. This resulted in hollow fiber carpets, a hollow rear spoiler, bolts with hollowed out heads, aluminum hoods, aluminum targas and many other detailed items. This was, by all measures, a highly successful effort when you take into account that the MKIV came with two turbos, as opposed to the MKIII's one, a 6MT as opposed to a 5MT, 4/2 piston brakes as opposed to 1/1, dual air bags, as opposed to one, and 17-inch wheels as opposed to 16-inch wheels.

All of this information was public and you did not have to be a designer of the car to be aware of it. Certainly, being a designer would make someone privy to information not publicly available, but how cars are configured when they are sold is not something that falls within the area of responsibility of the vehicle's designers. That is, generally, the province of the dealer purchasing the car from the factory, and a dealer is going to want to have the flexibility to align his vehicle purchases with the needs of his customers wishing to buy the affected vehicle, the MKIV Supra in the instant situation.

Initial dealer reservations regarding the rear wing were overtaken by the popularity of the rear wing, and I believe those of us that have been around for a while remember when wingless cars weren't considered as desirable as cars with a rear spoiler. So, some wingless cars, like Pasadena Turbo's, were converted. Having said all this, it appears to me, at least, that wingless cars have enjoyed a renaissance of sorts just like the color Anthracite Metallic (and Baltic Blue to a lesser degree), which has evolved from monkey shit brown to one of the more desirable colors in the MKIV's palette. Such changes in tastes are not surprising when one considers our cars range in age from 19-24 years of age.

P.S. Also, please remember the price of the MKIV Supra was significantly higher than the MKIII Supra, and the huge apples to apples price increases fed dealer anxiety along with initial concerns about the acceptability of the car's rear wing.


Ken.

 

I also own a factory wingless '95, TT. I'm glad I could never come to put holes in it.[/QUOTE]

I bought a second hand OE wing, it's even Alpine, but will never put it on the car. I was under the impression wingless TT was more rare as well. Glad I did not put it on!

Well said Ken... of course I agree with your logic, but being that I spoke with Tim personally... I believe him instead of speculating. I don't know Tim personally other than the couple times I have met him, but do know he said he was involved with the original design of the MKIV and he was with other Toyota employee judges, when he told this to me in front of them... so I have no reason to question his veracity. Not to mention he was on Jay Leno's Garage! ...check out the cool video if you haven't already... link above.

BTW I actually agree your statement, "Initial dealer reservations regarding the rear wing were overtaken by the popularity of the rear wing". My guess is that more people, maybe even dealerships ordered more with wings as they gained popularity, and then the dealers put on the majority of them. I still haven't seen real proof either way regarding this or if your hunch is correct that 95 and later.... all TT models came with wings. I would really be interested to find out if mine was "special ordered" without the wing... since it appears this is where you and I differ on our opinions. Whatever the case... we may never know.

Anyone have a 96 or later original TT that came wingless from the factory? If you do please chime in. We already established that not all TT came with wings from the factory... and that it is possible that mine and Supraman's wingless 95 TTs could have been special ordered that way...

 

Lol. I bough a stock spoiler a month after I got the car and a year later an authentic TRd spoiler, both still covered as I'm waiting to get a hatch with holes in it already.

 

LOL don't do it! Wingless forever man!

Nevermind... Do IT! I want mine to be more rare than yours! Drill the holes!

 

My 93.5 6spd TT was wingless but I put an OEM spoiler and replaced the hatchshocks. The door label with the transmission and VIN says,

Model: JZA80L-AJFVZA
MADE IN JAPAN
NO: 075

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Toyota did offer two different hatch struts for the MKIV right? One set for wingless cars and a stronger set for hatches with the rear wing.
If this is the case, when the Toyota dealerships were installing rear wings on the new 93-95 Supras, did they also upgrade the hatch struts?
I'm going to have to look at my hatches and see what I can uncover regarding the center hole and the hatch struts.

 

Jeff,

Yes, Toyota offered two sets of hatch struts for cars with, and without, the wing. I have no idea as to whether dealers installed the winged hatch struts when installing the rear spoiler, but I would think they would be careful enough to do this when this car was being sold new and was Toyota's flagship in every sense of the word.


Ken.

 

Ken I checked with Toyota and there was no mention of a rear wing on the original specs/build sheet for either of my cars. Both are 93.5's, one is wingless and one has a wing. Without having access to the original bill of sale, it doesn't seem like there is anyway to confirm when a wing may have been added if at all.

 

Ken noted that the popularity and/or desirability of the wing has varied over the years (as with noted colors!). I would not make a decision based on that or perceived "rarity".
Drive it the way YOU want it and if/when you sell it, the buyer can make (or will already have made) their decision.
Of course - never cut up a hardtop because you want a targa top!!!!!

 

Jeff,

So far, it appears most of the wingless cars are 93.5 models, which appear conform to what I was told about dealer anxiety about the rear wing. It also conforms to my personal experience when I purchased Blackie. I suspect there are, maybe, more wingless cars in existence than originally thought because of the wing being added by the dealer or post purchase by the owner (s). This appears to be case with Pasadena Turbo's car, and your car as well, both 93.5s.


Ken.

 

Just to piggyback on what has been said: my car is also a 93.5 wingless from the factory. I briefly sold it and that owner put the wing on, it has been an on again off again relationship but for now the wing is on ; )

Circa 2004

2017

 

Here is my winged factory wingless hatch with no center holes. It seems they got the holes right the first time as the stock wing I recently removed fit great.
The hatch shocks have silver stickers. They have no problem keeping the hatch up but it goes up noticeably faster with no wing installed.
I am going CF TRD wing but may make the car wingless again one day like I did my first MK4.

 

Here is my winged factory wingless hatch with no center holes. It seems they got the holes right the first time as the stock wing I recently removed fit great.
The hatch shocks have silver stickers. They have no problem keeping the hatch up but it goes up noticeably faster with no wing installed.
I am going CF TRD wing but may make the car wingless again one day like I did my first MK4.

They didn't put the oem pad between the trunk and wing? Mine had the silver label and would hold the wing for several seconds when the trunk was full tilt. Then it would start to slowly drop and slam shut. The blue label pulls the trunk up quickly with a slight pull up.

 

Not sure on the pads.
The car has been resprayed.

These silver sticker shocks can hold the hatch up all day with the wing on.

 

So while at SIV 2017 the gentleman working with the supra registry was doing his thing registering supras. While he was at my car, I asked him if the vins could identify a wing or wingless supra, and to my surprise he flipped a page with a code identifier and pointed at the sticker on my door and was able to say it was a factory black leather "luxury" model which meant it came with a wing.
He have me a card with the name Anthony Racine (supra registry)
He has the decoder