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My belief to this, is that according to reports Lexus has "parted ways" and has become more independent from Toyota in order to shed the Toyota feel/vibe. This was done in order to give Lexus a more up-market and indy image. Thus, no Lexus engine would be used in a Toyota Supra as it would be contrary to the push to seperate Lexus from Toyota. I have spoken.
The Camry, Avalon, Tacoma, ES 350, IS 350, GS 350 and RX 350 share versions of the factory V6 and the IForce 5.7L V8 is in the Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser, GX 570 and LX 570. The Rav4 shares a motor with its Lexus sibling and so on. I don't think we will ever see the day where both brands develop bespoke motors for their line of cars. Way too expensive and to what end? Some motors, say for Lexus "F" cars and the current LS 500, are bespoke and likely to remain that way until Toyota well and truly joins the horsepower wars, if it ever does. To call the technology in the LS 500 3.5L twin-turbo V6 next level is to diminish its impact upon the internal combustion world. It is that significant and that amazing. If I can find the link where I originally read about it, I will post it up.


Ken.
 

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@KenHenderson I fully agree. I don't understand some peoples anger towards most of us old school supra guys not embracing this new car or "giving it a chance" or whatever. This car could have been awd, v6, v8, as long as it was something toyota poured their technology and effort into I would have been behind it.

I fit like shit in the car as well, I mean I don't fit most stuff well at 6'5" but still would have been nice to fit.
 

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So the unthinkable happened yesterday here at my dealership. Some fool actually paid the $20k over sticker price on the Supra here. I am completely dumbfounded this guy paid $86k with tax and everything. i couldn't believe it they say a sucker is born every minute well one of them came into our store yesterday afternoon.
 

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Is there some company policy that prevents Lexus parts from being used in Toyotas? Toyota parts make it into Lexus but does it work the other way? Cadillac publicly had serious beef with the idea of sharing their Blackwing engine with any other GM brand.
So many components are used between Toyota and Lexus especially engine parts so i don't believe that's the case. Most of there car's share platforms as well so i don't think that Lexus and Toyota have necessarily "part ways" as some people think.



Supra enthusiasts, more than anything, wanted a true Toyota Supra with a true Toyota motor befitting of the Supra. Several Toyota motors have already been suggested, all good candidates from my perspective. An inline 6 was definitely not a must-have for me. That was another fiction created by Tada to justify Toyota's decision to sell out to BMW in every important respect, but styling, related to this car.


Ken.
That is my belief as well i don't believe majority of people here really cared if it was inline 6 or V6 just as long as it was truly a toyota developed not borrowed from another manufacturers parts bin.
 

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While I too would have loved to have seen a "Genuine" 100% Toyota sourced Supra, those who say they would've accepted anything as long as it had a Toyota motor and lineage are kidding themselves. I can absolutely guarantee that if Toyota had simply taken the RC-F engine and chassis and stuck a Supra body on it, the complaint's would have been no less than they are currently. Different yes, but probably no fewer. This would be the case even though the V8 puts out a decent 467 HP and handling is ok but not great. The likely complaints: it's a pig weighing in at over 4000 lb, a 4.3 second 0-60 time is not competitive in the market, it's fr/rr balance is not great and it doesn't have a manual. All valid BTW. Everything on this Supra would be Toyota/Lexus sourced but it would not be the car we were wanting. Unfortunately, if Toyota had decided to do the Supra in-house this is likely the direction they would have gone. They are businessmen not enthusiasts. As Ken pointed out, almost every Lexus has a Toyota sibling and vice-versa so a new from scratch, 100% Toyota Supra with bespoke parts is/was unlikely from the start. If I were to guess, Toyota ran the numbers, did a risk analysis and determined there was either no or not enough profit. As I said, as an owner of a '94 TT since 1994, I would've like to have seen them build a new version, but there is a reason we waited 25 years to see anything Supra.
 

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While I too would have loved to have seen a "Genuine" 100% Toyota sourced Supra, those who say they would've accepted anything as long as it had a Toyota motor and lineage are kidding themselves. I can absolutely guarantee that if Toyota had simply taken the RC-F engine and chassis and stuck a Supra body on it, the complaint's would have been no less than they are currently. Different yes, but probably no fewer. This would be the case even though the V8 puts out a decent 467 HP and handling is ok but not great. The likely complaints: it's a pig weighing in at over 4000 lb, a 4.3 second 0-60 time is not competitive in the market, it's fr/rr balance is not great and it doesn't have a manual. All valid BTW. Everything on this Supra would be Toyota/Lexus sourced but it would not be the car we were wanting. Unfortunately, if Toyota had decided to do the Supra in-house this is likely the direction they would have gone. They are businessmen not enthusiasts. As Ken pointed out, almost every Lexus has a Toyota sibling and vice-versa so a new from scratch, 100% Toyota Supra with bespoke parts is/was unlikely from the start. If I were to guess, Toyota ran the numbers, did a risk analysis and determined there was either no or not enough profit. As I said, as an owner of a '94 TT since 1994, I would've like to have seen them build a new version, but there is a reason we waited 25 years to see anything Supra.
 

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While I too would have loved to have seen a "Genuine" 100% Toyota sourced Supra, those who say they would've accepted anything as long as it had a Toyota motor and lineage are kidding themselves. I can absolutely guarantee that if Toyota had simply taken the RC-F engine and chassis and stuck a Supra body on it, the complaint's would have been no less than they are currently. Different yes, but probably no fewer. This would be the case even though the V8 puts out a decent 467 HP and handling is ok but not great. The likely complaints: it's a pig weighing in at over 4000 lb, a 4.3 second 0-60 time is not competitive in the market, it's fr/rr balance is not great and it doesn't have a manual. All valid BTW. Everything on this Supra would be Toyota/Lexus sourced but it would not be the car we were wanting. Unfortunately, if Toyota had decided to do the Supra in-house this is likely the direction they would have gone. They are businessmen not enthusiasts. As Ken pointed out, almost every Lexus has a Toyota sibling and vice-versa so a new from scratch, 100% Toyota Supra with bespoke parts is/was unlikely from the start. If I were to guess, Toyota ran the numbers, did a risk analysis and determined there was either no or not enough profit. As I said, as an owner of a '94 TT since 1994, I would've like to have seen them build a new version, but there is a reason we waited 25 years to see anything Supra.

Thats like saying my reaction to my wife cheating on me would happen regardless with two different scenarios

A - dating another man, and kissed
B - screwing the same guy in my bed in my home.

It's not comparable.
 

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FasTTurbo, you are correct. Just my opinion! Just like yours and the other 64 posts in this thread. My point is; if a 100% Toyota designed and sourced Supra had made financial sense to Toyota management, they would not have partnered with BMW. When it comes to car manufacturers, Toyota is not exactly known for taking risks. The typical investment to design a new car from scratch and bring it to market is reported to be in excess of $1B before one car is sold. Toyota makes an average profit of $2600/vehicle at the corporate level, so it would require them to sell 384,000 Supras before they would just recoup their investment. Even if you figure twice that profit for a premium car like the Supra, it's still 192,000 cars. I'll let you do the rest of the math and marketing analysis (market size, competition, profit and time value of money). Then factor in the possibility of market disrupters (i.e. low priced mid-engine Corvette, economic downturn, etc.) as risk factors. Once again, just my opinion!!!
 

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Thats like saying my reaction to my wife cheating on me would happen regardless with two different scenarios

A - dating another man, and kissed
B - screwing the same guy in my bed in my home.

It's not comparable.
Either way, you're likely to end up divorcing the b_tch, losing half what you own and having only visitation rights on weekends with your kids. The initial pain may be less but the outcome is the same.
 

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Blue Thunder
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FasTTurbo, you are correct. Just my opinion! Just like yours and the other 64 posts in this thread. My point is; if a 100% Toyota designed and sourced Supra had made financial sense to Toyota management, they would not have partnered with BMW. When it comes to car manufacturers, Toyota is not exactly known for taking risks. The typical investment to design a new car from scratch and bring it to market is reported to be in excess of $1B before one car is sold. Toyota makes an average profit of $2600/vehicle at the corporate level, so it would require them to sell 384,000 Supras before they would just recoup their investment. Even if you figure twice that profit for a premium car like the Supra, it's still 192,000 cars. I'll let you do the rest of the math and marketing analysis (market size, competition, profit and time value of money). Then factor in the possibility of market disrupters (i.e. low priced mid-engine Corvette, economic downturn, etc.) as risk factors. Once again, just my opinion!!!

How MANY NEW SUVs, CUVs, and platforms has Toyota made in the last 20 years ?!? Better yet...the last 10 !?! And NONE could have been a Supra !?! You opinion is invalid. They had the TIME and the MONEY to do it right. Tada just spent TOO much time drinking/sucking the GERMAN kool-aid !!!

My opinion too..but facts is FACTS !!!
 

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How MANY NEW SUVs, CUVs, and platforms has Toyota made in the last 20 years ?!? Better yet...the last 10 !?! And NONE could have been a Supra !?! You opinion is invalid. They had the TIME and the MONEY to do it right. Tada just spent TOO much time drinking/sucking the GERMAN kool-aid !!!

My opinion too..but facts is FACTS !!!
BTW, it's "facts are facts" not 'is'. Anyway, I don't see any facts!!! Just a rant. Maybe if you could include some numbers like the size of the sports car market, projections of market share for a Toyota designed Supra, profit per vehicle, annual sales, total market years (ie. years before a refresh/new car required), etc. If you had included some data even if it's just projections, you could have a point. But nothing, absolutely nothing??? Come on! Maybe you know the flavor of the BMW Kool-aid??? Is it Cherry, orange, grape?
 

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Blue Thunder
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BTW, it's "facts are facts" not 'is'. Anyway, I don't see any facts!!! Just a rant. Maybe if you could include some numbers like the size of the sports car market, projections of market share for a Toyota designed Supra, profit per vehicle, annual sales, total market years (ie. years before a refresh/new car required), etc. If you had included some data even if it's just projections, you could have a point. But nothing, absolutely nothing??? Come on! Maybe you know the flavor of the BMW Kool-aid??? Is it Cherry, orange, grape?

Well since u don't comprehend...here are SOME of the NEW cars Toyota has made since the Supra left in 98...
Highlander, Mirai, a boatload of Prius types, Sequoia, Tundra, Sienna, Tacoma, Yaris, 86/gt, Ia ,Xb, Xa, TC, Solara, Matrix, Venza, and CH-R to name a few off my head.

And that's NOT counting the Lexus versions or one off's like the LF-A.

Any could have been a Supra if Toyota wanted too.

And the flavour is bratwurst !!! LOL

B
 

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iSPOOL
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While I too would have loved to have seen a "Genuine" 100% Toyota sourced Supra, those who say they would've accepted anything as long as it had a Toyota motor and lineage are kidding themselves. I can absolutely guarantee that if Toyota had simply taken the RC-F engine and chassis and stuck a Supra body on it, the complaint's would have been no less than they are currently. Different yes, but probably no fewer. This would be the case even though the V8 puts out a decent 467 HP and handling is ok but not great. The likely complaints: it's a pig weighing in at over 4000 lb, a 4.3 second 0-60 time is not competitive in the market, it's fr/rr balance is not great and it doesn't have a manual. All valid BTW. Everything on this Supra would be Toyota/Lexus sourced but it would not be the car we were wanting. Unfortunately, if Toyota had decided to do the Supra in-house this is likely the direction they would have gone. They are businessmen not enthusiasts. As Ken pointed out, almost every Lexus has a Toyota sibling and vice-versa so a new from scratch, 100% Toyota Supra with bespoke parts is/was unlikely from the start. If I were to guess, Toyota ran the numbers, did a risk analysis and determined there was either no or not enough profit. As I said, as an owner of a '94 TT since 1994, I would've like to have seen them build a new version, but there is a reason we waited 25 years to see anything Supra.
Since 2007 and the release of the FTHS concept being rumored to be powered by a hybrid V6 people here were fine with it. How are you to say we would be kidding ourselves if that would have come to fruition?

The RCF is between 3700-3900lbs because of all the convenience features that come with a modern day luxury car. My proposal was to redesigned the chassis or lighten it up to around 3500lbs which is respectable if given an engine platform at minimum in the 450-500hp range.

The current Zupra is not competitive and I haven't heard many people beg for the car to have 50/50 distribution except for Tada and the people he influenced. We have already seen this thing get lapped, beat on the drag strip, and outperformed overall by cara which are heavier, arent 50/50, and some lowered priced.
 

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iSPOOL
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FasTTurbo, you are correct. Just my opinion! Just like yours and the other 64 posts in this thread. My point is; if a 100% Toyota designed and sourced Supra had made financial sense to Toyota management, they would not have partnered with BMW. When it comes to car manufacturers, Toyota is not exactly known for taking risks. The typical investment to design a new car from scratch and bring it to market is reported to be in excess of $1B before one car is sold. Toyota makes an average profit of $2600/vehicle at the corporate level, so it would require them to sell 384,000 Supras before they would just recoup their investment. Even if you figure twice that profit for a premium car like the Supra, it's still 192,000 cars. I'll let you do the rest of the math and marketing analysis (market size, competition, profit and time value of money). Then factor in the possibility of market disrupters (i.e. low priced mid-engine Corvette, economic downturn, etc.) as risk factors. Once again, just my opinion!!!
Lol Come on this is flawed data to simply use the average onboarding cost of $1billion and simply apply it to one platform(which would not be the case if kept in house) based on the average return on sales that ranges from cheap cars like Chevy Sonics/Toyota yaris to the money makers like the Corvettes, SUVs like Acadia, Rav 4, and Pick up trucks like Tundra, Tacoma, Silverado which can return $10-15k+ per vehicle.
But I agree the C8 is a huge problem with anything they develop going forward. But the difference I believe is the C8 design team put together a much better proposal to leadership than the Zupra team to justify the vehicles. And their dedication shows if you watch the presentations and lead up seminars for both vehicles.
 

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I am well aware of all these models. Most of them were aimed at a much larger market than what would be available for any new Supra. Almost all of the models you list used existing Toyota engines (and lots of other off-the shelf parts). Others like the Mirai were built to test new technology as proof-of-concept designs for future markets. Subaru did almost all the development work on the Scion FR-S/86 and thus shared the cost and risk so in reality it is no different than what they did with the MKV. The 86 was also aimed at a much larger market with much higher sales projections than there would be for a new Supra. Actual sales of the FR-S/86/BRZ were almost 100,000 cars worldwide between Toyota and Subaru over it's seven model years. Part of the reason it sold ~100K cars is it was also only $27K at introduction. Still even at 100K units sold, I doubt Toyota would consider the FR-S/86 a market success. If Toyota had decided to build a Supra, it's doubtful it would list for less than the $57K they want for the current MKV (the RC-F starts at $66K) so that limits the market. The MKIV sold for $47K in 1994 (>$80K in todays dollars) so those are the comparables. The only bespoke car on your list is the LFA and it was priced at $350K and sold less than 500 units. Notice I have some real numbers in my response!
 

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Blue Thunder
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I am well aware of all these models. Most of them were aimed at a much larger market than what would be available for any new Supra. Almost all of the models you list used existing Toyota engines (and lots of other off-the shelf parts). Others like the Mirai were built to test new technology as proof-of-concept designs for future markets. Subaru did almost all the development work on the Scion FR-S/86 and thus shared the cost and risk so in reality it is no different than what they did with the MKV. The 86 was also aimed at a much larger market with much higher sales projections than there would be for a new Supra. Actual sales of the FR-S/86/BRZ were almost 100,000 cars worldwide between Toyota and Subaru over it's seven model years. Part of the reason it sold ~100K cars is it was also only $27K at introduction. Still even at 100K units sold, I doubt Toyota would consider the FR-S/86 a market success. If Toyota had decided to build a Supra, it's doubtful it would list for less than the $57K they want for the current MKV (the RC-F starts at $66K) so that limits the market. The MKIV sold for $47K in 1994 (>$80K in todays dollars) so those are the comparables. The only bespoke car on your list is the LFA and it was priced at $350K and sold less than 500 units. Notice I have some real numbers in my response!
Why should i give numbers when you gonna give them to me anyway? LOL.

And no where did I say the Supra had to have a bespoke motor. It never has before. Platform sharing within the brand has worked plenty of times. No reason it would not work again. IE: SC300,GS300, IS300 all had a 2jz motor.

At least the BRZ/86 platform has a Toyota trans and fuel injection. Plus Toyota owns some of Subaru...so Toyota basically told Subaru what it wanted. That didn't happen with the Zupr4.

And I doubt anyone looking for a Supra would buy the RC. Just like no one cross shopped the SC300 with a Supra back in the day. Two totally different cars.

Now I'll wait for your post with numbers to prove me otherwise.
 

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It is impossible to build a extremely iconic sports car and make money. Just ask every other manufacturer that currently does it....
 

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The recent LC500 is prime example of not caring about losses, they definitely ran the numbers before making it, and they said fuck risk, we have the resources and we will make whatever the fuck we want, but when its about the Supra you get the repeated 2 million excuses.
 

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Shady, you correct about the $1B being an average cost of development. It's the best number I had available and I have no reason to believe it would be less for an all new car with a new engine. The average return on sales number I quote is an actual Toyota number not industry average. The high profit margin on pickups is a factor of their huge sales numbers (over a million annually for the Ford F-150) and resulting reduction in manufacturing cost. Only Toyota's marketing and executive team can say why they decided to team with BMW versus building their own Supra but you can be assured if they thought they could make more profit building it themselves, that's the way it would've happened. Toyota is the 16th most valuable brand ($43.7B) in the world versus GM at 116th (<$12B) for a reason. They have a pretty good track record of making good decisions that ensure profitability. Since I am not in the market for a new Supra ( I'm keeping my 1994 and I have an R8 Spyder), I don't really have a dog in this fight but that doesn't mean I have no interest in the car from a spectator point of view.
 

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The recent LC500 is prime example of not caring about losses, they definitely ran the numbers before making it, and they said fuck risk, we have the resources and we will make whatever the fuck we want, but when its about the Supra you get the repeated 2 million excuses.
That's not risk that's a conscious decision. You are exactly right about Toyota saying; "we will make whatever the f_ck we want" and that's what they did (or didn't). They obviously had their halo car (LC500) and didn't need or want another that would be a drain on corporate profit. No matter how much Supra fans would like it to be otherwise, Toyota makes its decisions on profits not emotion.
 
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