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iSPOOL
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Shady, you correct about the $1B being an average cost of development. It's the best number I had available and I have no reason to believe it would be less for an all new car with a new engine. The average return on sales number I quote is an actual Toyota number not industry average. The high profit margin on pickups is a factor of their huge sales numbers (over a million annually for the Ford F-150) and resulting reduction in manufacturing cost. Only Toyota's marketing and executive team can say why they decided to team with BMW versus building their own Supra but you can be assured if they thought they could make more profit building it themselves, that's the way it would've happened. Toyota is the 16th most valuable brand ($43.7B) in the world versus GM at 116th (<$12B) for a reason. They have a pretty good track record of making good decisions that ensure profitability. Since I am not in the market for a new Supra ( I'm keeping my 1994 and I have an R8 Spyder), I don't really have a dog in this fight but that doesn't mean I have no interest in the car from a spectator point of view.
The high profits for their pick up trucks can be attributed to added options not the number of vehicles sold. The SUV sector I would agree is volume based due to the shared platform and other cost saving measures GM has in place.
The Silverado starts in the $35k range but can swell to well over $70k when the customer finalizes their options. Some manufacturers are wanting to introduce a six figure pick up truck because the return is so lucrative.
Porsche has been doing this for years reportedly having an industry leading $17k+ profit per vehicle. The C8 will follow suit, while the $59,995 price point will generate profit alone, the added options can ballon the car well into the $80-90k range, hence increasing their profit per vehicle. I have priced mine to be in the $75k range. The options I added are not "at cost" for Chevy. It doesn't cost $395 for them to install red seat belts in place of the black ones lol. But thats the price and will increase their per vehicle profit.
The Zupra on the other hand doesn't have any options and limited customization to generate higher profit which to me shows that their business proposal to Toyota leadership was subpar.
 

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I agree about options on pickups being a huge cash cow and after buying my wife a loaded Cayenne, I have first hand experience about Porsche and their option prices. I was also in the market in 2017 for a pickup to drive in the winter so have some experience there. My experience after visiting Chevy, Ford and RAM dealers was that there were few to no basic models on the lot and almost ever vehicle in stock had at a min $10 -$20K of options with many having up to $35K in options. On the other hand, all of them were offering between $12-$15K in rebates and incentives. I guess that's an indication of the built in profit margins. At the end of the day, I ended up buying a fully loaded Honda Ridgeline. I don't really like pickup's but sometimes need the utility they provide. The Ridgeline (a SUV with a bed) was a great compromise. That plus Honda reputation for reliability made it a great choice.
 

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iSPOOL
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I have a 2009 Toyota Tundra myself. I too enjoy it for hauling large items, or taking the dogs to the park or vet (I have 3 large breed dogs) and its comfort. Like a lazy boy recliner as compared to my Supras or Corvette! And the Tundra has the added perk of it being the most American truck on the road for 2009!
'Merica-pan🇯🇵 lol
 

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Discussion Starter #86
While I too would have loved to have seen a "Genuine" 100% Toyota sourced Supra, those who say they would've accepted anything as long as it had a Toyota motor and lineage are kidding themselves. I can absolutely guarantee that if Toyota had simply taken the RC-F engine and chassis and stuck a Supra body on it, the complaint's would have been no less than they are currently. Different yes, but probably no fewer. This would be the case even though the V8 puts out a decent 467 HP and handling is ok but not great. The likely complaints: it's a pig weighing in at over 4000 lb, a 4.3 second 0-60 time is not competitive in the market, it's fr/rr balance is not great and it doesn't have a manual. All valid BTW. Everything on this Supra would be Toyota/Lexus sourced but it would not be the car we were wanting. Unfortunately, if Toyota had decided to do the Supra in-house this is likely the direction they would have gone. They are businessmen not enthusiasts. As Ken pointed out, almost every Lexus has a Toyota sibling and vice-versa so a new from scratch, 100% Toyota Supra with bespoke parts is/was unlikely from the start. If I were to guess, Toyota ran the numbers, did a risk analysis and determined there was either no or not enough profit. As I said, as an owner of a '94 TT since 1994, I would've like to have seen them build a new version, but there is a reason we waited 25 years to see anything Supra.
Umm.. yea. No. Lmao.

DCT FT-1 with any engine would have been a historic success.
 

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Discussion Starter #87
The recent LC500 is prime example of not caring about losses, they definitely ran the numbers before making it, and they said fuck risk, we have the resources and we will make whatever the fuck we want, but when its about the Supra you get the repeated 2 million excuses.
Exactly.
 

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Discussion Starter #88 (Edited)
FasTTurbo, you are correct. Just my opinion! Just like yours and the other 64 posts in this thread. My point is; if a 100% Toyota designed and sourced Supra had made financial sense to Toyota management, they would not have partnered with BMW. When it comes to car manufacturers, Toyota is not exactly known for taking risks. The typical investment to design a new car from scratch and bring it to market is reported to be in excess of $1B before one car is sold. Toyota makes an average profit of $2600/vehicle at the corporate level, so it would require them to sell 384,000 Supras before they would just recoup their investment. Even if you figure twice that profit for a premium car like the Supra, it's still 192,000 cars. I'll let you do the rest of the math and marketing analysis (market size, competition, profit and time value of money). Then factor in the possibility of market disrupters (i.e. low priced mid-engine Corvette, economic downturn, etc.) as risk factors. Once again, just my opinion!!!
What made sense to Toyota management fuckboys who don't even like cars matters not. What matters is the car itself and the truth.

And the truth is: a real Supra enthusiast should be in Tada's position making decisions, because a DCT FT-1 with any engine would have sold out instantly at almost any volume.

If you build it, they will come. Chevrolet sure did.

Where are all of the C8 commercials and social media posts that sold 5.5M worth of cars in no time? 🤔🤔🤔
 

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So, the bones of the car are good, the majority of disappointment I see is in the drivetrain and associated electronic bits with roundels on them, understandably.

Wonder if there's an option to buy BMW out of the partnership and stuff in the Toyota parts we all want? Before the official reveal of the Mk5's running gear, I postulated that the LS500's v6 would be a great fit, better if it could be tuned to rev. I still stand by that belief.

Personally, I love inline sixes. Few engines are easier to work on, and the asymmetrical nature of them presents a unique engine bay. The length of them, despite being a balance boon, does have a nice appeal. Plus I'd argue that inline sixes generally sound better than vee sixes. All that said? I don't really care what powers a vehicle, as long as it PERFORMS.

Example. Corvettes are still powered by technology pioneered in a time when horses were still a valid form of transportation, the push rod valvetrain. Yet they still perform. Ford's Coyote is an amazing engine. Mazda's little Skyactiv engines are fantastic to drive. Sure, none of these blow your mind with technological prowess (well, depending on how you define prowess), but they're all well suited for the car. Toyota could have done the same with the Supra.

As for handling balance? If you care about things other than straight line, weight distribution is a fine metric to get right. My Supra sits somewhere around 52F/48R and it handles VERY nicely.
 

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FasTTurbo, you are correct. Just my opinion! Just like yours and the other 64 posts in this thread. My point is; if a 100% Toyota designed and sourced Supra had made financial sense to Toyota management, they would not have partnered with BMW. When it comes to car manufacturers, Toyota is not exactly known for taking risks. The typical investment to design a new car from scratch and bring it to market is reported to be in excess of $1B before one car is sold. Toyota makes an average profit of $2600/vehicle at the corporate level, so it would require them to sell 384,000 Supras before they would just recoup their investment. Even if you figure twice that profit for a premium car like the Supra, it's still 192,000 cars. I'll let you do the rest of the math and marketing analysis (market size, competition, profit and time value of money). Then factor in the possibility of market disrupters (i.e. low priced mid-engine Corvette, economic downturn, etc.) as risk factors. Once again, just my opinion!!!
I totally get your logic but why is the burden of explaining why toyota did this on the enthusiast. Sometimes the investment logic is to carry over the value proposition imposed by an iconic halo car down the road for a further 25 years. What was that last investment worth to toyota from the last actual supra made?(mkiv)
It was fucking priceless, that car back in the 90s that failed on paper made them more money than anything else, big picture. When your life is spreadsheets, cost analysis, risk adverse, etc all the time...thats all your life becomes.
 

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Statements I agree with:
  • engine didn’t need to be I6
  • DCT FT-1 would have been awesome
  • sporty RC-500 would have worked
  • C8 kills any interest in the MKV
  • Trying to leverage the Supra community after making the wrong product was the biggest mistake
The Supra has never been a sports car so I don’t know why they made it one. This would have been an ok MF-2.

Daniel
 

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Toyota could have developed an engine to be used as much as the B58 is over at BMW.

But NO.

I remember discovering how much 1JZ's and 2JZ's were used in the 90's. Crazy.
 

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A dealer is selling a 23-mile used MKV on Bring-a-Trailer. The car has already generated over 200 comments in less than two days. I've read all the comments, but can't bring myself to knock down all the bad information in that thread. Life is already too short. That said, many are calling it as they see it....a BMW in Toyota disguise: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2020-toyota-supra-launch-edition-2/?utm_source=dailymail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2019-09-03


Ken.
Just to finish up this part of the discussion, the Launch Edition on BaT generated, at last count, 712 (!!) comments. Ultimately, the car was RNM, with the high bidder coming in at $56,700. As an aside, the last I had looked at this car a couple days ago, it had about 320 comments. In the last two days, the number of comments doubled. If you have the time, they are worth reading because BaT is a much better reflection of the overall market than SF or any other vehicle-specific chat room.


Ken.
 

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iSPOOL
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Just to finish up this part of the discussion, the Launch Edition on BaT generated, at last count, 712 (!!) comments. Ultimately, the car was RNM, with the high bidder coming in at $56,700. As an aside, the last I had looked at this car a couple days ago, it had about 320 comments. In the last two days, the number of comments doubled. If you have the time, they are worth reading because BaT is a much better reflection of the overall market than SF or any other vehicle-specific chat room.


Ken.
Reading through those comments, you can see it's been controversial lol. Many posts I agree with the occasional positive remark.

I see it says the reserve was not met, I wonder what the seller wanted and why they though BaT was the place to post it for sale. To stir up more controversy?
 

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Just to finish up this part of the discussion, the Launch Edition on BaT generated, at last count, 712 (!!) comments. Ultimately, the car was RNM, with the high bidder coming in at $56,700. As an aside, the last I had looked at this car a couple days ago, it had about 320 comments. In the last two days, the number of comments doubled. If you have the time, they are worth reading because BaT is a much better reflection of the overall market than SF or any other vehicle-specific chat room.


Ken.
That listing changed my view of BAT, since they accepted a listing of what is essentially a new dealer car, much like any other car listing site. Might as well be Craig's-Bring-A-Trailer-List.
Oh sure, it was sort of a "different" car, but not meeting the usual standard I see applied at BAT. If it showed up a few years from now, it might make sense - depending on how sales and performance of this car turn out.
Maybe they took on the character of Verticalscope and decided to change something that was working fine for years into something more "millenialesque".
 

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Blue Thunder
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That listing changed my view of BAT, since they accepted a listing of what is essentially a new dealer car, much like any other car listing site. Might as well be Craig's-Bring-A-Trailer-List.(edit)

With a NEW car do u really need to "Bring A Trailer" ?!? LOL
 

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Someone tried to auction off a Supra on Bring a Trailer and it failed to meet the reservation, even though the top bid was $56,700...yikes.

 
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