Part two:

Fuel System:
Ls1's are returnless, at least at the intake. I believe it was 97-98 'vettes that had a return on the fuel rail, however, all other Ls1's had the return and fuel pressure regulator close to the gas tank.
The Supra has a return style system, correct? Becuase the Supra and RX7 have a lot in common, both being turbo import cars, etc, I searched torquecentral to see how they figured this out.
I found this thread:
http://www.torquecentral.com/showthread.php?t=36439&highlight=corvette+filter
The returnless Corvettes used a fuel pressure regulator with integrated fuel filter. It has 3 outlets- fuel in, return, and regulated fuel out.

Here is a picture of this member's modified setup:
http://www.torquecentral.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17206

I want this swap to be California emissions legal, so the charcoal canister must be used. However, due to legality, I believe it is the engine donor car that the charcoal canister must come from (not the Supra canister).
Note: the canister must also be mounted in the same position it originally came in (fbodies have their canister near their gas tank; the canister would have to be mounted in a similar location on the Supra).
Because of this, I modified some diagrams I had and here is what the fuel system for the Supra/Ls1 should look like:

I believe this should be adequate for controlling fuel and I will be using a modified parts list from that torquecentral thread.
​

As of now, that is all I have. To be honest, I don't understand wiring. There are plenty of pinouts of the ls1 harness and PCM online, and I would be happy to provide links to them. Apprently, the lsx is quite easy to wire, as a small amount of connections must be made.

 

Sorry man, I'm a loyalist. If there is any V8 that's going in, it's the Toyota 4.7L iron block.

Eric

 

Sounds like a great plan. Let us know how that works out for you.

 

As long as you don't mind the lower resale value (compared to a TT, it would probably besimilar to the NA as they have strong resale values too) and inferior transmission (T56 as compared to the V160) and are not planning on making a lot of HP with the stock engine I don't see a problem with it.

Although I'm with Eric, if I'm going to go through the trouble of dropping a V8 in my Supra it would be the all aluminum DOHC 5.7 liter engine from the Tundra. Or if I wanted a more robust block the iron block 4.7 liter.

 

Ehhh, split the difference and roll with one of our Toyota V8 5.65L strokers in the iron block

Eric

 

i like the way you think sir. Cant wait to see you results and the manual one as well!!

 

Haha there's gettin to be a pretty big debate of this over at LS1tech. Can't wait to see how both sides turn out.

 

ha ha ha im following both threads as well.

 

I guess I'm biased, but honestly I'm against it. A GM trans yeah, but that's where I draw the line. If we have a GM powerplant with aGM trans, then basically we end up with a hybrid Camaro.

Now I know some SERIOUS 6.6L C5's with large sized shots, and they run strong. However if I wanted a C5, I'd own a C5. I guess I am just a Toyota loyalist. I VERY much like what I see when I crack open the 2uz-fe 4.7L V8, and I think it's a perfect upgrade to a MKIV Supra.

Eric

 

I'm totally for it just to spite bebop
I was going to do a 3S-GTE for autocross fun but a lsx would give me much more power

 

I am personally going with a Toyota V8, but I appluad you efforts. I know you want to keep this techincal so here we go: Perhaps you can use a V160 and avoid moving that engine forward, then you could use stock parts for the rest of the drivetrain. Also, what about simply designing a new oil pan with a sump that fits between the cross members? I would much rather do that then hack up those structural components -or go dry sump.

 

Whether or not I would ever do it is not the point. I agree with TurboAndrew above in terms of the potential use of the V160 for the reasons noted. I am as big a Toyota fan as anybody, but congrats to the thread starter for delving into this in some detail.

If I were to do this, I would probably go the Cowboy way, assuming it's all it's cracked up to be, but let's be honest here. Such a swap, if proven to be viable and relatively inexpensive, would be a direct competitor to Cowboy's hard work and so his comments have to be viewed in that context at minimum. I just saw a pic of a Mercedes SL 500 with a 2JZ-GTE installed. Most on this board thought it was very cool, although I'm sure the Benz boards think such a motor swap is heresy at its finest. So, in my view, it comes down to whose ox is being gored, loyalist viewpoints notwithstanding.

I hope the thread starter's comments and ideas are taken seriously whether or not individual commenters would seriously consider such a motor swap. Carry on.

Ken.

 

I think it comes down to money....

How much in parts that you would need to spend?

10 or 12k?

A LS1 swapped RX7 (If you shop around for used parts) would run AT LEAST 9k range in parts alone...

I would figure a LSX SupraNA/SC300 would probably run more than that.

V160 ---3k used
JDM 2JZ - 3kish
(of course plus other 3k more in parts)

I dont see many people willing to do the LSX swap on a supra unless its a cheaper option for the NAs and the SC300s to upgrade. Of course if you wanna be different thats a different story.....

 

Keep in mind the LS7 is a dry sump. See how much more of a viable option it would be to have one of those in. I know the engine itself is 13K brand new from GM, and I'm not sure how inclusive that price is. I'm a diehard Toyota fan, and I must say, more power to you, I hope you get this in, running, and bastardizing soon! Good luck!

 

Considering this swap would probably be performed on an NA, there are a few advantages to be had. Many people forget that the weight of a hardtop NA isn't too heavy, and would definately be lighter than an fbody, possibly a C5, with the added weight reduction of the lsx.

Many people go NA-T, and as great as an option it is, it still isn't emissions legal in certain places (I think?). A TT swap also costs quite a bit of money and as many say, it's probably worth it to just sell the NA and buy a TT. Cost is a big factor here. Keep in mind a heads/cam LSx (especially the higher displacement varients) can be at similar performance levels as a BPU car (although it's not nearly as cheap).

I haven't thought of using the V160, though the price would probably defeat the purpose of the swap. As far as manual transmissions go, it's hard to beat the price of the T56. I have tried to search for smaller bellhousing for the lsx motors, but so far to no avail.

The engine doesn't have to be moved forward to fit the trans tunnel. The tunnel could be severely reworked, or the engine/trans combo could simply be dropped without any forward/backward movement. However, by moving it in two planes, I can get more distance between the tunnel and transmission (instead of moving it in a single plane).

The stock subframe could be used, and that was my original intention. Here are pics of the stock Supra mounts, note the angle:


Here are pics of C5 mounts:


GTO ls2 with mounts:


C6 ls2 mounts:


Notice how the mounts are very similar, though the C5 bracket is at a 90* angle (to the bottom of the block/ subframe). The GTOs uses a very similar mount, as do the C6's. Custom motor brackets could be made to utilize the stock mounting locations of the Supra, however that still would not solve the problem of the oil pan/ crossmember. I suppose a new oil pan could be made, though I don't know if the subframe dimensions could accomodate the sump. Another thing to consider would be the price of the custom brackets+custom oil pan vs a custom subframe. The owner of the custom FD mount said it cost more than twice the price of any kit; I would assume in the ballpark of 2.5 to 3k. The new subframe may also lower the weight of the car and increase chassis regidity (if it does either though, gains will be minimal).

Stock FD subframe:


Fbody motor mounts could be used very easily (I wonder how they would affect ride quality?). Here are pics of fbody style mounts:

As far as price, 10 or 12k may be enough. It should be adequate. These projects tend to nickel and dime you to death though. Also keep in mind, these swaps are always more expensive in the beginning as there is no kit or set path to follow. I'll do some research as to how much a complete FD swap is (mid to low twenties is a common price for a complete car since last I checked. The cost of the donor car certainly plays a part in the price of the finished project. Obviously the big parts you have to purchase are the engine, transmission (and in this case) the subframe.

I also forgot to mention that the AC compressor from the lsx can also be used. Custom lines would have to be made to mate the compressor to the Supra chassis (that's what I've found for the FD guys at least).

Also, I searched on ls1tech, can someone link me to the thread this is discussed in? I found one in the hybrid section, but it's rather small.

 

The purpose of this thread is to have a definitive thread regarding LSx swaps into Supras. A few people have asked questions, and there is interest (albeit few and far between) in this subject.
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Good lord you put alot of time and thought into this. Why havent you done it already :1poke:

 

Money and time. I wanted to research this to the best of my abilities first, before I ever have to pick up a wrench. Measure twice, cut once.

I guess I'm looking at it this way. There's already a V8 that fits perfetly into the Supra engine bay. The 4.0L out fo the SC400 matches up perfectly right down the motor mounts. They cost usually about $500 complete. In stock form they usually are good for ~550rwhp before they need to be built. If staying NA, they can be made into a high strung, high compression V8 with the addition of cams, headers, thinner MLS headgaskets ect. There's already an adapter loom out there and an ECU also. There's one running in England right now. I guess for a budget swap wouldnt' this be the way to go?

Eric

You definately have a point. There is less hassle, both with mounting and wiring. However, (if you're running an NA) the transmission could still be a brick wall. I know it's a performance car, but gas mileage would be greatly improved with an lsx/t56. A cam swap is also a lot more involved in a 4v than a pushrod motor too. Also, what kind of horsepower limit would an NA 4.0 run into? Even with bolt-ons and cams, I would think 300 to 350 would be the most you would typically see?

As a budget build, that is a great option, however there are a few things to consider:
-the 4.0 would weigh more (assuming the lsx is aluminum)
-transmission choices of the 4.0 can be limiting if a budget is in mind
-gas mileage would not be as optimal
-cam profiles are fairly limited
-you would still need a new intake

As per TTC's website, cams for the 1uz are ~1500 and the intake is 1800. That is a large amount of money for minimal gains and has little room to grow.

 

Nice write up and diagrams!

 

I guess I'm looking at it this way. There's already a V8 that fits perfetly into the Supra engine bay. The 4.0L out fo the SC400 matches up perfectly right down the motor mounts. They cost usually about $500 complete. In stock form they usually are good for ~550rwhp before they need to be built. If staying NA, they can be made into a high strung, high compression V8 with the addition of cams, headers, thinner MLS headgaskets ect. There's already an adapter loom out there and an ECU also. There's one running in England right now. I guess for a budget swap wouldnt' this be the way to go?

Eric

 

dotstereo,

I believe this thread is informative if nothing else. I'm not sure if all your assumptions regarding 1UZ are on target and, since it made 310 bhp off the showroom floor, I know your power assumptions need tweaking unless you were referring to whp.

In reading through this, in my mind at least, there is the ironic possibility that, in informing guys about the potential of this swap, you inadvertently demonstrate the practicality and long-term benefit of Cowboy's program. I'm not saying you would have a problem with that, and the the thread is still young, but it looks like it could be, potentially, headed that way from my perspective.

Ken.

 

As far as power gains, I was assuming whp. I actually had interest in a UZ swap before I started thinking about an lsx. I PM'ed Eric once on clubna-t and he estimated that with an agressive set of cams, 350whp should be achievable on a 2uz [not the aforementioned 1uz].

I support Eric and TTC completely in their endeavors, as they are pioneering something in the Supra world. The same goes to Kagetsu and anyone else doing a V12 swap.

To speak in hyperbole, I would say that there are two directions you can go with a fast car. The first would be more common; most people leave their cars stock or mod them mildly, and are ultimately left with anything from 300 to 500 horsepower. This is also where many people make a bigger issue of traction among other things. The second direction you can go in is an all out beast; 1000hp+. These are extreme examples, and surely there are many people with power figures in between. The point I am trying to illustrate is that modding is all about the direction you take; the power of the aftermarket is the availability it gives us. We can build a daily driver or a traction-limited weekend warrior.

The lsx swap would give us more availability, as well as power-per-dollar.
A cammed, NA 4.7 (2uz) would see around 350rwhp for:
motor: ~500 (price for 1uz, how much does this compare to 2uz price?)
intake: 1800
cams: ~1900

A NA 1uz may be able to make the same HP numbers, and cams cost ~1500 in that case.

This neither includes the cost of installing the cams (is headwork/valvetrain neccesary?) or the harness adapter. At this price you are in the ballpark for an ls1+t56, and not terribly far from an ls2+t56. The UZ would also be near its peak for producing NA HP numbers. The lsx series have a very cheap aftermarket, and has much more room to grow. Head/cam packages can put you within 400 to 450rwhp for less than the cost of the UZ intake. It's all about choice.

If you decided to go any wilder, lsx's (and I would assume the UZ series) respond great to nitrous. FI is also a viable option. Both motors would need building around the same HP level. How much does a forged UZ cost? What about a forged motor + full head and valvetrain? Even at that level you are still left with a 4.x liter motor. Then you would have to fabricate your FI kit.
The lsx has multiple options as far as blocks go. Stroker kits are plentiful. Aluminum 346? 383? Iron 408? Ls2 402 with ls7 heads and intake? 454ci LSX block? You could make phenomenal NA horsepower without the headache of FI. If you wanted though, more HP is right around the corner with a Procharger, Kenne Bell, or turbo.

Sorry for rambling. We are Supra enthusiasts and have a love for the car. Many love the engine, and many love the chassis itself. Some members may have grown tired of their engine or are looking for other power options, but still love the car they may have owned for over a decade. There are a lot of ways to make power, some are financially practical and some are not, but at the end of the day fast is fast. The defining factor is how you get down the track (or around it); I just think the lsx is a fairly cost effective way of doing so. :hug:

 

Also, IIRC, one of the Supra's motor mounts is fluid filled, so substituting a pushrod V8 with LSx motor mounts for one of the smoothest, inherently balanced inline sixes in the world is something your program would have to address from an NVH perspective. Of course the Lexus V8s, with world class noise and vibration attenuation, will not have this problem.

Ken.

 

Depending on how good of a fabricator you are, you could get it done pretty cheap, especially if you buy a donor F body and get the ECU, trans, radiator, accessories, etc from there and sell the rest. This would be a really cool swap if you wanted a road or drag race car, you don't need the RWHP w/ an LS1 that you have to have w/ a GTE to do the same thing because its usually less peaky. Headers might be tight because of the shock towers.. For a show car, the LS1 isn't the prettiest motor... This will definitely shave weight off also, besides the aluminum motor, no turbos, IC, piping. Does anyone have accurate weights of both longblocks? I have one of each on stands in my garage and the 2J is definitely heavier, don't know how much though. Do a Cam only LS6 w/ a 4.xx NA diff and a 6 speed, that would be pretty cool and easy on the wallet. There are going to be people that hate this idea, I say go for it, its your car, do what makes you happy.

 

this shit is sick man i love it keep it up

 

great details. interesting to see some implementaions.

 

I don't know if the c5/c6/gto motor mounts are fluid filled or not, nor how they would affect noise or vibration, but they are a similar design rubber isolator as the MKIV. The cadillac CTS-V may use a similar mount as well. Hopefully some GM owners can chime in on this subject.

As for the specific weights, I am not sure, however in an ls1tech thread these figures are listed by a member:

"Complete 2jzgte motor without tranny is about 594 lbs

Complete, Wet, no trans,crate ls1 from GM is 458 lbs

ls1 is 136 lbs lighter"

I don't know if this includes the turbos, etc. Either way, it still leaves out the weight of the intercooler and piping. Also to consider is the added weight of a larger intercooler, larger tubo, piping, etc (if upgrades are to be performed).

Another ls1tech member posted:

"If your weights are correct the whole LS1/T56 combo is the same weight as the 2jzgte motor w/o tranny. My LS1/T56 combo was 596 lbs when I put it on the scales."

 

Very detailed posts!

I saw you have brought up a few times the gas mileage advantage of the LSx. I was under the impression that single turbo supras with a good tune were capable high 20's to low 30's mpg? If that is incorrect what is a better number assuming all highway miles with no "pulls".

also about weight of the engine I do believe that is the correct wieght for the 2JZ block and turbos. I have also heard that a single will normally lose some weight, not sure on the exact amount, from the stock sequential system, however you are correct to factor in all intercooler piping and the intercooler into the weight so it would still go up some.

 

I saw you have brought up a few times the gas mileage advantage of the LSx. I was under the impression that single turbo supras with a good tune were capable high 20's to low 30's mpg? If that is incorrect what is a better number assuming all highway miles with no "pulls".

Those numbers sound about right with good tuning. I have heard big single cars can achieve such numbers with AEM, etc. As far as mileage goes, I should have specified in-town mileage.

I have heard high teens, to even 20 mpg in the city, for the lsx motors, which is impressive considering the displacement. The Z06 gets an estimated 16 city stock. Mileage has even been shown to improve with cam swaps; I would certainly be delighted with higher HP and better gas mileage. From what I have seen, not many other 300-400HP (certainly mileage goes down when HP goes up) cars get high teen mileage within the city. Perhaps I am missing these and there are Supras that can get better mileage? I could be wrong, the gas mileage gains may be minimal. If anyone has some figures for Supras I would definately be interested in hearing them.

 

What power can be made from a cams only 1uz or 2uz, and how much do they cost w/ supporting hardware, shims, springs, etc? A new cam for an ls6 w/ springs is about $700, and they are very easy to change unless its in a Corvette. You can get used cams for $80-175 usually.

 

In a lot of ways, the 2uz we work with is different from the early 1uz. We moved away from the 1uz for several reasons, and decided to concetrate solely on the 2uz. I'm not sure what just a set of cams will do for the 1uz. I'm not sure anyone does. Performance data is rather limited. That being said from a budget swap aspect that's being presented here, while we don't concentrate heavily on the 1uz it's STILL a drop in motor to the MKIV, and with a little work can be made great performance machine. Plus with the adapter we've produced, the V160 will bolt right up. There are better ways to drop a V8 into the MKIV engine bay than moving shifter locations, hacking up subframes, and redesigning oil sumps.

But I don't want to be the wet blanket in the group. I can appreciate the effort that goes into the swap, trust me. I hope that pics are shared if/when the swap is attempted.

Eric

 

The cheapest route to a reasonable level of HP for a V8 conversion might be a 92-97 1UZ with single turbo, thicker head gaskets, mkiii turbo 5 speed & adapter. Some big advantages here are the drop-in ability of the motor, nearly no-fuss tranny drop-in. Just need to fab up manifolds for the turbo, etc. Might need a different ECU. Maybe not the most flashy way to do a conversion, but for bang for buck probbaly the best.

A LSx still seems like a good project if you can avoid the subframe changes. Fabbing a custom sump should not be that hard. If you have to use the T56, then then I would just make sure simply dropping 2" does not work better for you -at least then you move center down and keep it towards the middle.

 

Sorry it took so long to stop by and pay my respects. Please keep this discussion civil...so far, so good. I'll be watching this thread closely as I've been in discussion with dotstereo about this project for some time, and am really excited that he finally broke cover with it. :bigthumb: