very cool.. what would you say you have total in your racelogic setup cost wise??

-Sam

 

Why did you have it in "wet" position? It seems like a 15% or 10% slip would have worked to your advantage.

 

At any other position, I finish 2nd gear at a lower rpm since the wheels are spinning slightly more. What this does is increase my lag time when I respool for 3rd gear.

I spent some time tuning it on a parking lot, but never understood what settings would give me proper traction control. The manual and online user groups never dove into fine tuning the injector cut points and percentages, I ended back up with stock settings at one point.

There is no replacement for sticky tires. Tough to compete with these AWD beasts and vettes with standard street tires and 19" wheels, at least in freezing weather. :crazy: Now if we do pulls from 3rd gear, that's a different story. But, no one here has the courage to do pulls past 140mph, and I don't blame them. Most of these races are over at 120mph, right where I'm reeling them in hard.

Anyone else on Racelogic care to share their experiences?

 

I also use Racelogic for traction control. Even with it tuned, you have to get used to it in the Winter months when your tires break a lot easier.

To answer RoadRacer4 Life's question, depending on who you have install it and how, the pricing can vary. I purchased the unit with LaunchControl and the non-digital interface for $800. I had it installed for ~$370 because of soldering, heat shrink tubing, and the non-use of their mating-interface. I rather it be hard coded into the injectors and such.

Works great, but does tend to be violent in the colder months. LOL

Good job, Andre!

 

dre,
As you probably know, the tire diameter plays into the Racelogic's calculation of how much wheel slip is happening. So not changing the tire size when going from 26" to 28" tire seems marginal at best. That in itself is about a 7% "error" (on the diameter & circumference) in the slip calculation.

Depending on what parameters you have set for the various slip adjustments (dry, 10%, 15%, wet etc) I can't imagine "wet" being a good setting for aggressive driving even in cold with slippery tires.

Do you have your own settings for the rate of cut, the amount of cut, and how aggessively it reverts to no cut? If you're not sure where to start, get Stu Hagen to email you his collection of settings, or call Ben Lew and ask him for setup advice. Ben's parameters on mine work very well.

 

Nick,

You are correct. And I have to retract my statement, I am on the 10% slip, NOT the wet setting. To your comment, once I went to 28" tires, my WET setting would constantly cut fuel while cruising, so obviously I need to get back into the software and change the settings.

I wasn't aware Ben had a racelogic or any experience on it! I am using the stock settings at the moment after my own settings didn't fare to well.

 

When you dive into it a bit more you will see you also have a "straight line override" setting, mostly these are set at 5% < so in addition to your 10% wheel slip setting. @ 15% total on cold road and cold tires and especially in 2nd gear with the violent way power comes on (at the level you have) it is very hard for the TC to do its job, so what you find is especially if the cut patters are not optimized (sequence 1, 2, and 3 in the slip control tab and the slip angles they are asserted at) is that the engine will flare up too quick with a couple of real loud pops and bangs, when the TC is working at its most efficient, you hear a semi constant, rapid, machine gun dull muted almost noise, with little loss of acceleration and virtually no associated rev drop due to excessive wheel spin in the gears. It's the combination of just the right cut patters (in 3 stages) and also the correct initial setting of triggering *weather and traction dependent in most people case*.

Too much TC = slow
Too little TC = slow
Just right TC = fast
No TC = ****

You could find in your case, even on non tweaked maps that a simple turn of the adjuster to say 7 or 8 % + the straight line override added on top (whatever that setting is, you need to check) could be the sweet spot, its all about tuning.

remember when this was allowed in F1! TEAMS USED TO TEST FOR DAYS AND WEEKS AND MONTHS, JUST ON OPTIMIZATION OF TC MAPS! We don't have it as bad, but there is allot in the settings

 

Ben has Racelogic on his for many years and knows a lot about it. He installed and tuned mine about 7 years ago and by that time he was already deep into it. I just spoke with him a day or two ago. He now also "upgraded" to AEM v2 from his previous V1. He's sort of meticulous about tuning with both the Racelogic and AEM.

 

Dre, you're probably one of my top 5 favorite posters on all of Supra forums.

 

+1. am loving all the objective data you share with the community.


craig

 

Your racelogic tune sounds much more aggressive than mine. I don't get any of the loud bang/pop sound you do. Mine is a much more milder sputtering sound. I am not sure if that is a good or bad thing. Mine is based off a base map Stu Hagen sent me.

I have found that the tire diameter has to be spot on or it can make the traction control act a lot more inconsistent. But you already know this.

I usually drive with it on the 15-20% setting. However the coldest weather my car ever sees is about 50degrees because I am in San Diego.

I will say that I absolutely love the racelogic unit. It is very nice and reassuring to floor it from a stop light and the car will go dead straight.

 

The Racelogic was one of the best purchases I have ever made. Although it takes some time getting used to tuning it, once its set up properly the car feels safer to drive.

Your racelogic tune sounds much more aggressive than mine. I don't get any of the loud bang/pop sound you do..

The reason why is because the racelogic has 3 sequences it goes through for cutting power. More than likely his car is trying to compensate for more traction loss than yours is. If you overpower the first sequence it goes to a more aggressive sequence, if that is overpowered it goes to the most aggressive sequence which will give you the bang/pop sound. When my racelogic kicks on in 2nd gear (street tires) you can hear it a few blocks away easily, initially I thought something was wrong.

 

Im seeing some benefits of the racelogic but am tossing it up back and forth between why not just use a very wll setup boost by gear setup? I mean I would rather have the max power I could hold for my given tire vs basically a driving revlimiter, or am i wrong in what it is actually doing?

I know that with my boost bygear setup my last car was all out deadly on my radials

but dre you do some sick all out testing of stuff, my god you have alot of time on your hands LOL

 

...I would rather have the max power I could hold for my given tire vs basically a driving revlimiter, or am i wrong in what it is actually doing?...

I'm not sure how you mean that, but Racelogic only cuts fuel. I wouldn't call that a rev limiter even though Dre's severe cut did sound like bouncing off a limiter.

 

The problem with boost by gear is that road conditions and temperature play a big part in whether or not your car will have traction when you floor it.

With the racelogic, you could theoretically punch it on a wet road, and if tuned correctly, your car will pull as hard as it can for the traction available instead of putting you into a wall.

 

Cool post. I look forward to getting mine installed here in a few days. OF course there is so much salt on the roads I won't be able to drive the car for a while.

Steve

 

cool post man thanks for sharing with us

 

I've been saying this for years. The racelogic is a waste of money and now your harness is cut all to hell!

 

Can you expand on that? It sounded like dre's post was mostly positive. It seems to me that once he gets his settings dialed in he'll be liking it a lot.

 

In cold weather, expecting any kind of traction is pointless. On pump gas, I'm blowing the tires off in 3rd gear on a cold day even with the RL. (More the reason to have traction control.) On a warm day, however, there's no substitute; I believe that's when you'll get the most out of the RL on a highway pull at full tilt. You're guaranteed to apply just as much power as your traction will permit AND the car will track straight - everytime.

There is an important point that needs to be mentioned here. What is the ECU doing during injector cut? Is it dumping fuel into the other cylinders as the O2 sensor registers a lean condition because O2 feedback is on? If so, then you're not only cutting power but potentially making things worse because the other cylinders are running fat.

For that very reason, I set the fuel map very tight to the target O2 table in open loop mode. In closed loop mode, I only use +- 3% of O2 feedback just so the other cylinders aren't inundated with fuel during injector cut. You can read about it here: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=520811

Given I'm running a smaller tire than most (275/40s), the RL is a big plus. Additionally, it provides COMPLETE control of the car during injector cut; there's nothing like it. And finally, it definitely provides the most efficient application of traction to the road. Just ask Victor at F&H Performance. I took him for a spin in my car, and he thought I was on drag radials because the car pulled so hard. It completely fooled him.

-scott

 

I've contacted Phil (Terminator) from the UK site for some feedback on my settings. If he is ok with this, I'll share them here for others to look through as most updates I've seen are really old.

 

This may be another option
http://www.dragzine.com/features/pr...eatures/pri-coverage/pri-2010-davis-technologies-keeps-your-race-car-hooked-up/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV_w-fbgvN4

 

just put some 325x50x15 and call it a day. I don't regret doing this. just make sure they don't rub. I can do a full launch with this babys and no rubbing. I have seem some people with this tire and they tell me they can only do roll pulls, do it right.

 

Much better idea than the racelogic.

 

man your car is no joke, love the vids car looks f***k agessive!!

 

It sounds & looks to me the RLTC is doing everything expected of it, if you're worried the change in tyre height is affecting the RLTC it's quite a simple procedure to go into the setting and adjust the wheel diameters

 

Been trying to get more data on Racelogic before I pull the trigger. This is a cool thread, thanks OP for posting this up and the videos!

 

Phil took a look through my calibration file, and to my suprise, he did suggest that I use factory settings. All my settings were tweaked through suggestions from the RLTC yahoo groups, but in the end it never worked properly. Essentially, my setup is indeed to sensitive, and I'll be experimenting with less sensitive settings.

 

Has anyone tried a RL setup on an auto car? I would love a traction control setup on my car eventually but not sure how well itll react.

 

RLTC is especially helpfull on an auto car, when you've got both the problem of kickdown & the sequential system coming on strong at 4k it can assist on slippery roads or when overtaking when the backend can easily catch unexperienced drivers out

 

Dre, what are your AFRs doing when the traction control kicks in? Is your meth injection creating a lean condition that may be showing harmful effects?

 

"Dre, what are your AFRs doing when the traction control kicks in? Is your meth injection creating a lean condition that may be showing harmful effects? "

Take a look at the graph below:

First of the four pulls is from 2nd gear. You can clearly see alot of activity in the O2#2 section. It goes severely lean, well at least that is what the wideband reads. Not shown on that graph is Knock activity, which also goes through the roof, as well as the expected timing retard and some additional fuel from the knock compensation.

Also, the PINK line, MAF as Load, is my back pressure. You can see at some points the RLTC is doing severe fuel cut, probably hitting the Sequence 3 or Integral cut, as my backpressure totally drops to nothing, indicating very little ignition is taking place in the motor.

It is my belief that this is knock *noise*, not true knock. Also, I believe the cylinder which is being cut, is being cut 100%, meaning no combustion is taking place. But, the theory states that fuel puddling behind the valves may still be enough to create a lean combustion even when you cut that injector for that specific cylinder. Racelogic states this is avoided by not cutting the same cylinder in succession, rather, they cut different cylinders when needed. This is a gray area, but I haven't seen any damaging evidence on the plugs...

As for the meth, it's been stated here on other threads quite often that it takes twice the amount of meth vs. fuel to combust. In my case, I am running 80% Duty on 1000cc injectors, so 800cc of fuel needed to get 12:1 AFR with gas. I would need 1600cc of pure meth to get the same equivelant AFR. I am injecting 1600cc of meth but it is 50/50 meth and water, and 1600cc is being distributed to six cylinders. Theoretically, each cylinder is only seeing 266cc of 50/50 meth. No way that stuff is exploding in there alone.

Further discussions with Phil had me concerned as he has evidence of a few road coarse vehicles in the UK popping headgaskets, and he does not know if the RLTC contributed, but is suspect.

 

I have had a few UK customers contact me for custom programming of the RL tc system, one I can mention is WIFBITZ who tested my maps on their own RX7 Time Attack car. They liked it so much they paid for it
You can if you do NOT know the firing order of your car and thus set the wrong cut patterns in the RL TC, this will cause higher than normal knock levels being detected by the knock sensor or sensors.

So far as someone else's question to do with water/methanol injection that is alone from the ECU this will have no negative effects at all up to 50% water to fuel ratio (main fuel supply!) and this is running a WM50/50 fluid.

Hope this helps?

 

That's pretty much what I wanted to hear. I know the RLTC isn't going to create a lean condition but the meth was my worry. If your calculations are correct, I can see that there won't be a problem. I'm running 1000cc of 100% meth so I'm not sure if I want to pull the trigger just yet. I believe you may be the first with the RLTC and meth injection.

Looking at the data, in first gear your O2s are leaned out and dangerously so at it's peak which also shows backpressure.
About the knock, the videos showed a pretty violent reaction so I could agree with you on the noise but without it being plotted to show exactly when the noise was occurring I don't want to make any assumptions. If the noise is dramatically increased over the "normal" noise you would expect at the 7000+ RPM then I would suspect that the noise is actually knock. But I guess there wouldn't be any way to tell other than checking the plugs right after the event.

As always, you're the man when it comes to real world data.

 

Thanks. For what it's worth, the lean condition may make perfect sense, and not a case of a cylinder running lean, but more a case of a lean condition within the mass of exhaust volume. The O2 sensor is reading a combination of cylinder pulses coming out the turbine housing. If at idle you simply unplug one cylinder, you'll notice the O2 will read leaner than normal.

Because an engine, especially a 6 cylinder, is exhausting hundreds of exhaust pulses per second, the O2 sensor reads an average of your oxygen level (or lack there of) at idle. As soon as you unplug one or even two injectors, your average oxygen content goes up vs. fuel, so obviously the engine reads leaner, but it isn't a real representation of the air fuel ratio in each cylinder.

So, I wouldn't say the lean condition with the RLTC kicking in is dangerous at all. I do believe that any fuel on the intake walls or behind the valve that still gets sucked into the chamber even after the RLTC cuts the injector, isn't enough for partial combustion. Add water/meth to it and it is probably making it even worse condition for combustion. Who knows if the water/meth is keeping me safe in this gray area when the RLTC is kicking in...